I would. If I tell a kid to sit in that spot and stay there, and they get up, I do not have a problem lifting them up bodily and putting them back. I'm not forceful about it, I'm not talking about levering or shoving but hands around torso lift, and gently plop their cheeky little butt back into place? yep.... You wouldn't manhandle your child like that...
omg no. Your initial post didn't convey that level of forcefulness.I will put a dog somewhere with a leash, too. But I won't take his collar in my two hands, lift him up by it, and re-position him. ...
this one baffles me. I'm proffering a group request for someone to create a recording or point me toward a recording of the sound they mean when referring to this. Not singling out yintzy personally, just using this post since it was the first to mention this but I know other feel the same way, and I don't get it. I have all sorts of noises I make to refocus a dog's attention, remind them to stay on task, alert them that they're about to make a mistake - as well as cheer them on, alert them that they're doing great and should keep going, let them know they've almost got it and are on the right track... none of the animals or children I've ever worked with have ever appeared to have anything like such a dramatic reaction as described in yintzy's post by any stretch - and I have worked with some very expressive and dramatic creatures, I would think one or two would have conveyed to me that my methods were not only ineffective but downright traumatic.... I always hated the EH-EH (and actually think a no is less harmful - though it's an interruptor, not an instructional tool). I NEVER allowed my students to EH-EH but after this event, I lectured against it, ...
i do that, too. and i actually really upset a parent when i did it to their child one time. meh, i don't think there's anything at all wrong with swiftly and firmly responding to a child's failure to follow directions. if i'm asking them to 'stay put' it's only b/c i *need* them to for their safety. i wouldn't ask a kiddo who isn't capable of sit down & wait for me right HERE to do it. if they CHOOSE not to follow my directions there will be a consequence. and 3 muscle jobs!I would. If I tell a kid to sit in that spot and stay there, and they get up, I do not have a problem lifting them up bodily and putting them back. I'm not forceful about it, I'm not talking about levering or shoving but hands around torso lift, and gently plop their cheeky little butt back into place? yep.... You wouldn't manhandle your child like that...
Agreed.In the second scenario, I think using a marker such as "time out" is different than a NRM. An NRM means reinforcement isn't going to be presented. a Timeout marker means that existing reinforcement is going to be removed because of the behaviour the dog was doing at that moment - a Conditioned Punisher. I don't think a time out marker (and -P) are particularly helpful in isolation, but can be a part of a broader program (ie. puppy nipping)
Neither does a click, or vocal cues like "sit", "down", "drop", "leave it", or "pancakes" , until we have established that --this sound-- means --this--.I can't stand "eh eh" or "no ma'am" as often is said here - it communicates nothing to the dog.
For me, "leave it" is a specific command that generates one action, which is to ignore whatever you're not supposed to be interested in. The command is positive in that it cues a specific behavior and can be rewarded. "Eh-eh" is a negative command that says nope, not doing it right but doesn't give the dog direction to do it right (whatever "it" is). Again, my interpretation.somewhere in all the babble, there's one particular point y'all can help me with: what is the difference between "leave it" and "eh-eh"?
Okay, this is an open thread for anyone to list ONE THING that you see other people do, under the guise of training, that makes you want to scream 'OMG STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!' at them.
I think there's a difference between an NRM and a 'leave it' command, and 'eh-eh' (said in the tone of voice that mimics the buzzer on the old Family Feud game show) is used as either or both. But they're different things. Like this:
I'm walking along with Mike and he sees a dead squirrel in the grass and goes to pick it up. I say 'leave it!' or 'get out of that!' or just 'eh-eh!' -- whatever I say is in a sharp tone that gets his attention and emotionally 'shocks' him away from the object. (I'm not going nuts on him, I'm just being emphatic.) That's a 'leave it.'
A NRM is, for instance, when you put your dog into the weave poles on an agility course and he goes in at the third pole instead of finding the entrance. Some training styles say you should tell the dog that he is not going to get a reward/reinforcement for that, so you 'point out his error' by giving him a NRM. Some people say 'oops' or 'too bad' and some say 'eh-eh.' Some people are casual, some are forceful. Some of us don't do any of that, but just call the dog back and start the exercise again, giving a better cue this time.
To me there's absolutely nothing wrong with 'eh-eh' used as a 'get out of that right now!' signal, but I would never give that same signal to a dog who put a foot wrong in a training class, because I'd figure that my cue produced the unwanted behavior. (Yeah, I put him in at the third pole, look at my shoulder!)
yhea, we're crossing paths and never meeting, that's not a situation in which I would utter my non-verbal noise. For me I am not giving what is specifically a NRM, it really does function more as a "hey, stay on task.", more of a "keep going" marker than a correction.Kara, maybe a rally example:
I do use it when doing stays and the dog is clearly distracted - not just randomly looking around but reacting to something in the environment (but hasn't yet moved their feet.) I would not use it to correct a wrong response, whether it was my error, the dog's or a mutual misunderstanding. I do have a different noise, more of a "aww, too bad", if they've actually broken the stay already - and a different "you settle, now" for a dog who's growling or barking - and a very different, sharper, louder "hey!", definitely meant to evoke a brief startle response, if a squabble breaks out in the group and I need an opening to get in there and break it up.I see NRM different from Connie's example which in my way of thinking is a verbal correction.
People teach or "proof" stays by ah ah! ing the dog for moving. Dog looks away ah! ah! Dog sits when you cued a down- ah! ah! Downs when you cued a sit - ah ah. Dog growls at something they are nervous of "ah! ah!" Dog moves when you don't want them to ah! ah! Dog walks towards something you'd rather they didn't ah! ah! Dogs have a skirmish ah!ah!
Sometimes it's like disapproval, sometimes nagging, sometimes startle, sometimes threat, sometimes the dog seems to have learned to completely ignore it and there's no perceivable response.
I think the problem with using it as "neutral" information is knowing if that's really what';s happening. How do we know what the animal is thinking or feeling? I don't even get it right when I guess what my spouse if feeling half the time. How do we know it isn't annoying, de-motivating, anxiety provoking or making it harder for the dog to learn?
I guess my question is this: What is it intended to do? Is it to reduce the rate of errors? Does it? In a training context, is it necessary to stop an error as it is happening or add commentary? What happens if you just let the error happen and let the dog learn without adding commentary? ...
In practice, mine certainly seems to function more as a cue than as a punisher. Again pointing to the likelihood that this is a semantics confusion for me.Apples and oranges. Simply put- one is a cue, one is a punisher. They aren't the same part of the A -B - C antecedent->behavior->consequence. One is an A one is a C
but clearly it does in others, someone addressed it as a peeve earlier in the thread which led to the derailment in the first place.This doesn't evoke passion in me in the sense of being upset that people do it. I don't really care who ah ahs their dog.
then going by my limited ability to 'guess' what is going on in an animal's mind, I'm supported in my belief that my non-verbal sounds are being interpreted by the animals is reinforcing or neutral since the behavior is reinforced and repeated?We don't know how our dogs feel exactly soo if we have the ability/opportunity, we look at the resulting behaviors. The only real way to gauge whether something is in fact reinforcing or punishing is to look at whether that behavior goes up or down in future trials. It's not reinforcing/punishing because we say it is or think it *should* be- that's determined by the response of the dog.
very slight but potentially significant difference in tone - my tone isn't so much "aaaah don't you think of breaking that stay" as it is "hey, remember you're supposed to be staying put..." and I generally return to the dog and reward in position.So in the situation you describe-- my dog is in a down stay and is distracted by something he is afraid of or perhaps something he just finds compelling. I would either call him to me before he breaks or use R+. So rather than "aaaah don't you think of breaking that stay" it would be "wow, great job. good for you. here's a treat. let's go." Reward them for staying so they keep staying, so the likely hood that they'll stay in the future will go up. Make it successful, build on it.
Your example here is not universal. When I was working for Disney, I had several opportunities to be able to visit the 'barns' and observe training sessions. One of the behaviors I got to see in several stages of shaping was very similar to your example. The lion building had a central aisle. Individual cages could be opened one at a time to give the cats access to the passage. At one end was a raised 'crate' that opened to the aisle at one end and had a barred panel adjoining a human access area. (Lions and many of the other animals are what they call "zero-contact", keepers and animals are always separated by a barrier of some sort unless the animals are anesthetized.) The cats were taught, with pure marker/reinforcement, to exit their sleeping quarters, walk down the aisle, hop up into the crate, turn, lie down, and permit their tails to be manipulated in between the bars (often their tails just flipped out naturally but the keepers could slip fingers through the bars and draw the tail out too) so the keepers could draw blood from the large vein near the root of the tail. Many times I saw a cat start twitching its tail or shifting as if about to flop their body into a different position, and the trainers would vocalize a soft "ah-ah-ah" or purring/ticking sound or even just the nearly universal low drawn out "eeeeaasssyyyy..."When I see the amazing behaviors of zoo animals--much harder to work with and performing much more difficult tasks than we are asking for from our dogs, I am inspired. Take for example the hyenas taught to press their neck against the side of the wire cage and stay still that way for a blood draw. Those hyenas don't hold that position because someone says "aaah" don't you break position now! Quite the opposite. The behavior has been built up gradually using positive reinforcement. When the hyena ends up with his jugular right under one of the wires and they want him to move and he's like "nuh uh. no way am I moving. I know this game. Take my blood dude. I'm staying just like this and then getting my big meaty bone " THAT is what I want- I want my dog to be really motivated and happy to perform the behaviors I'm teaching and I want it to be really reliable .
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