Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

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RobinS
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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby RobinS » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:18 am

The show dogs that I have had in classes generally have issues with lack of socialization -- snarky with other dogs, don't know how to read canine body language, don't know how to settle down, things like that. I am not against "show dogs", I am against "show people" who do not have dogs who are properly socialized and have horrible manners outside of a show ring.

My latest was a Golden breeder who has a six month old that is so petrified being out in public, that it is debilitating - she cannot move. She wants this dog to be a show dog because she "came from champions" and in her words "is a perfect dog" so I have to get her "over this" so I can "show her" and have her as part of my "breeding stock". Well, the woman never socialized the dog to anything or anyone but her other two Goldens and she wanted me to "fix her dog" so she could make her a champion and breed her. She got this puppy from the "Champion breeder" at 12 weeks and that breeder never had the dog anywhere but in her kennel with her littermates. She told me this exactly: "I don't want to come to puppy classes for her to get any training, I just want her to get socialized and that should fix the problem, you don't need to teach me to train her."

Yea, so I have a bit of a bug up my butt sometimes about some "show people", not all "show people".

I get along much better with people who understand the importance of puppy socialization and teaching their dog basic manners, that's just how I roll. So, I get your frustration, Calypso, I really do.

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QBert
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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby QBert » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:25 am

The show dogs that I have had in classes generally have issues with lack of socialization -- snarky with other dogs, don't know how to read canine body language, don't know how to settle down, things like that. I am not against "show dogs", I am against "show people" who do not have dogs who are properly socialized and have horrible manners outside of a show ring.

My latest was a Golden breeder who has a six month old that is so petrified being out in public, that it is debilitating - she cannot move. She wants this dog to be a show dog because she "came from champions" and in her words "is a perfect dog" so I have to get her "over this" so I can "show her" and have her as part of my "breeding stock". Well, the woman never socialized the dog to anything or anyone but her other two Goldens and she wanted me to "fix her dog" so she could make her a champion and breed her. She got this puppy from the "Champion breeder" at 12 weeks and that breeder never had the dog anywhere but in her kennel with her littermates. She told me this exactly: "I don't want to come to puppy classes for her to get any training, I just want her to get socialized and that should fix the problem, you don't need to teach me to train her."

Yea, so I have a bit of a bug up my butt sometimes about some "show people", not all "show people".

I get along much better with people who understand the importance of puppy socialization and teaching their dog basic manners, that's just how I roll. So, I get your frustration, Calypso, I really do.
The ... dogs that I have had in classes generally have issues with lack of socialization -- snarky with other dogs, don't know how to read canine body language, don't know how to settle down, things like that. I am not against "... dogs", I am against "...people" who do not have dogs who are properly socialized and have horrible manners ... .

[snipped]

Yea, so I have a bit of a bug up my butt sometimes about some "... people", not all "... people".

I get along much better with people who understand the importance of puppy socialization and teaching their dog basic manners, that's just how I roll. So, I get your frustration, Calypso, I really do.

I completely understand and share the frustration. Have you read any of the stories I've posted about what it's taken so far to get my pal Boogity to even begin to be able to function in the world? Can I introduce you to a dog I know called Twitch?

but I edited the above quote, and other than removing a particular reference to an individual dog, all I did was remove the word 'show'. doesn't change much, does it? I could replace that word with "agility", "sport/hobby/trial herding", "Schutzhund/IPO/Ring", and it doesn't change much. Or I could replace the word with "Black" or "Asian"; it's all just unfair generalization from one asshat to an entire community.

RobinS
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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby RobinS » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:39 am

I wasn't generalizing, just sharing my experience. Were you calling me an "asshat"? I much prefer "assbonnet".

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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby UpwardDog » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:49 am

The way I read it Kara's asshat reference was in reference at one breeder/owner/person who doesn't socialize the pup (or whatever the offending thing is).
it's unfair to generalize from one asshat to an entire community = one shitty show person doesn't mean all show people are that way.

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QBert
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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby QBert » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:52 am

I wasn't generalizing, just sharing my experience. Were you calling me an "asshat"? I much prefer "assbonnet".
Your intention may not have been to generalize but the overall tone certainly reads that way. You didn't address your vent to "Some People!" or to "This Breeder!", you focused on "Show People". Granted you qualified it as show-obsessed, but that hardly narrows it down. Most people who have a hobby that they are so passionate about that it becomes a lifestyle are 'obsessed' with it to an extent. As I attempted to illustrate with the edited quote, it's generalizing from one individual asshat to an entire community. It's extraneous information to point out that they're' show people, just like it would be extraneous information if I told a story about a social encounter I had and made a point of mentioning the other person's race, weight, religion, or lifestyle.

Of course I wasn't referring to you personally, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to interpret what I wrote as if I had been addressing you.


You say that all the show dogs in your classes have issues. How many of the Terriers in your classes have issues? How many of the mutts? How many of the Retrievers? The Spaniels? How many of the dogs residing in households that include children? How many of the dogs owned by single working gay Jewish men have issues?

RobinS
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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby RobinS » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:05 am

I was being silly by saying I wanted to be an "assbonnet", of course I knew what you meant. My humor wasn't translating into writing, I guess.

I wasn't generalizing about ALL show people, Qbert I was simply stating my personal experience with"those show people" who came to me that had the issues. Yes, it is correct that every "show dog" that I have had come to me had the issues I mentioned.

I am sorry that this was construed by anyone that I thought this way about all show people, because that is not the case at all.

So, to be very clear.....I was sharing my personal experience, I was not generalizing and I do not think that all show people are bad people, I really don't.

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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby RobinS » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:10 am

The way I read it Kara's asshat reference was in reference at one breeder/owner/person who doesn't socialize the pup (or whatever the offending thing is).
it's unfair to generalize from one asshat to an entire community = one shitty show person doesn't mean all show people are that way.
I was being "silly" and it got lost in translation, I knew she wasn't calling me that, I was just being funny, but it got missed. I have read my posts again, I wasn't generalizing - I stated what my experience has been so far.....and if it came off like that in print, please accept my apologies.

Every "show person" who came to me had the issues I mentioned, that does not mean that every show person is an assbonnet or asshat.

Really, you ladies have known me long enough to know that I don't hate show people! Let's all hug and be friends again.

:sign_hijack:

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Re: Ugh! Show-obsessed people!

Postby UpwardDog » Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:33 am

When I watch dog shows I am usually amazed at how well the dogs do considering that environment. Two out of my three would not be so comfy stacked with a dog stacked 2 feet behind them or having a stranger touch them all over. I'm sure I could train for it and make it work, but I would think the vast majority of show dogs have to be ok with other dogs or they would never make it.

When I watched westminster and the handlers with dogs in tow go congratulate the winner, all the dogs were in very close proximity on lead and all looked pretty "meh, whatevs" about it. I was all "yikes" and waiting for someone to snark.

In the trial border collie world many if not most of those dogs aren't what any of us would consider "socialized" in puppy hood yet they all seem to do well together at trials and clinics. I think they are just genetically less likely to be worried about it other dogs. Different dogs have different needs and potentials.

My point (and I do have one) is that just because a dog is very shy, fearful or lacking dog-dog skills doesn't mean they were kept in a kennel all day or that no attempts at socialization were made. I know of dog trainer's pups, pick of the litter, well bred, who seemed fine as wee ones, had the best of everything and then ended up with life long struggles with fear and anxiety or were never comfortable with strange dogs. There is a BIG part of temperament that is inherited. Obviously socialization is important and can help a shy or anxious pup, but it can only go as far as their genetic potential allows. Regardless of my upbringing, I will never be a great shmoozing, cocktail party girl.

I'm suspect dog trainers see a higher percentage of "show dog people with issues" because that's probably why they went to class- for help. I would guess that many of those pups and dogs don't go to class but do meet lots of dogs and people while out showing, hanging in RVs camped on the show grounds etc. I would guess that show dog pups come to class and may not even be known to the trainer as a pup who will be shown.


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