Was this a seizure?

[connie]

Last night, about 3 am, I was waked up by dogs moving around in my bedroom and some scrabbling noises. I turned on the light and grabbed my glasses and saw Beau, right by his bed (on the floor at the foot of my bed), lying on his back like a turtle that had gotten turned over. He was thrashing around and couldn't right himself. The other dogs were standing around watching him.

I reached down and picked him up and set him on his feet and he pancaked. Collapsed on the floor in a kind of C-shape. He seemed to have no muscle strength.

Now freaked out, I picked him up and held him in my lap for 5-10 minutes until he relaxed. Then I set him down on the floor again and this time he stood, and walked a couple of steps to his bed. My t-shirt where I had been cuddling him was soaked with saliva, and his front ruff and fur were soaked too. No vomiting, but copious drooling.

This morning he seems fine, went out and wandered around the yard, pottied, came back up the deck stairs, all normal.

But as a trainer friend says, 'if it happened once, it will happen again.' What WAS that episode last night?

Beau turned 11 last week and has no known health issues, is on no meds, and up till now his biggest issue has been the world's worst teeth.

[emmas_mom]

From my experience, it was mostly likely a seizure, though it could have been a stroke (the symptoms can be similar, though the heavy drool is more common in canine seizures than canine strokes, IIRC). I'm sorry, Connie. Hopefully it can be quickly controlled with meds.

[connie]

I don't think it was a stroke, I've seen that and there were invariably effects and deficits resulting. Beau is absolutely fine today: ate his breakfast, went on the walk as usual, ran around in the yard in the snow with Rowley.

It didn't present like a vestibular episode, I've had lots of experience with those in dogs. And it wasn't a muscle spasm. So I guess I have to think it was a seizure. How odd! I wonder what the cause was?

On Monday (two days from now) I'm taking Peeks to see our vet to talk about end of life for her; I'll mention Beau's event to him. I don't at all like the idea of Beau on seizure meds, and I'm inclined to start with CBD oil and see if that controls whatever this is. Interestingly, the AKC is funding a study to learn more about the efficacy of CBD oil for dogs with epilepsy : https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/healt ... -seizures/

[emmas_mom]

Yes, I agree it was more likely a seizure. And, thinking of Eddie when he started having seizures, the pharmaceutical meds are not fun. I'd certainly start with the CBD oil right away - it can't hurt and may help. I've read up quite a bit on CBD oil, as I use it with Maggie at the vet's recommendation (for anxiety), and frequently see references to it being used to help people with epilepsy, as well as helping minimize seizures in dogs. Of course, a lot may depend on the severity, frequency, and cause of the seizures. If Beau has more, note the time, length, etc - and have a look at the eyes to record the movement etc. These are all things my vet asked me to do when Eddie's seizures started.

[MaisyPancakes]

Oh shoot, I hate seizures. I'm so sorry. We used lots of CBD for MP's seizures and owies; dosage depends, but we were advised to use a lot more than the label indicates, which apparently is pretty common. My fave capsule brand is Canna Companion, and Endoca for the oils. Like Jean said, if it happens again, I would time it (ictal and post, until he's totally back to normal), and give something like vanilla ice cream (or some kind of glucose + fat combo) immediately after. Ice packs on neck and/or lower back is supposed to thwart or stop/shorten one, too. Hopefully you won't need to do any of these things, because he won't have another!

[connie]

Well, it's two seizures in ten days, and that's so not good. I'm really worried, and I blogged about it here: https://cinnamondogcom.wordpress.com/20 ... wait-what/

I'm coming over here to vent about the reply on my FB post from a friend who suggests that Beau has built up toxins in his brain and I should find an energy doctor to get rid of those toxins.

What the exact f*ck?

So if Beau has a lesion on his brain, we can reverse it by seeing an 'energy doctor'? And the toxins that have built up will just go away -- how? Let me guess, it will be directly related to the number of checks I write to the 'energy doctor'?

What kind of toxins, exactly? This is a dog who has 7 years of no vax, a raw diet, no pesticides, not even heartworm preventive until this year; no household or yard chemicals, tons of outdoor time in non-urban surroundings, and not even a damn microwave in his environment. WHAT KIND OF TOXINS?

This shit makes me crazy. I cannot reply to the person who posted that; she is a rabid anti-vaxxer and has the complete fantasy reality that those people construct. I suppose she means well, but I don't even really believe that. I think she's a damn fruitcake. I ran into a lot of this when Sander didn't die of cancer: the crazies on the internet often assumed that I was one of them because I disdained conventional veterinary meds. Ugh.

Okay, so I am really worried about Beau, because everything I read and hear says that the most common cause of sudden onset seizures in a dog 10 or older is brain lesions. I'm right to be worried, and a big middle finger to the person who diminishes that worry and the seriousness of the problem by blithering about 'storing some toxins in his brain.' I know who's storing toxins in their brain, and it's NOT MY DOG.

[Kathleen]

I am so sorry Connie, vent away.
I just posted about Banzai’s weight loss and I was afraid to post on Facebook because I just didn’t want to filter through the crap. I’m already trying not to bitch slap his breeder who means well but is Really offending me with some of her suggestions. Sheesh.
My only experience with seizures has been with younger dogs that lived long lives with no other issues.
My vet did say with Skye that is it was a brain tumor there would usually be other symptoms, for what that is worth.

[connie]

Yes, that's why I'm not laying out $$$$$$$ for an MRI -- a brain tumor isn't shy about making its presence known. There WILL be other signs, if that's what it is.

I talked to a friend this morning and when I said 'brain tumor' she said 'I'm sorry but that's the first thing I thought of ... I hope it isn't but if it is, at least that's not horribly painful for the dog.' Things like that make me feel better. Beau has a wonderful life and I want that to continue.

[MaisyPancakes]

I'm so sorry, Connie...and Kathleen, too. I always see these kinds of bonkers comments and think, "Ooooh shit! You did *not*!" and I can just see your face while reading them!!

Re: Brain stuff—I used to be really scared of that, too, but I agree with your morning friend that it's not like a severe owie that really does suck.

Sending you all the good everythings (hey, I've become an energy doctor!) your way. I know that worry and heaviness in the gut and it is the worst feeling.

[emmas_mom]

I saw your friend's comments and admired your restraint.....I was gobsmacked by her wild suggestions. When Eddie started having seizures (age 11), and the vet figured it was a brain tumor because of the intensity and frequency of them combined with his age, I also decided against the MRI - and the vet agreed. Even if the MRI had confirmed a tumor and/or any kind of lesion, I wouldn't have been having Eddie go through surgery for it even if that was possible. It was only in hindsight that we realized Eddie's behavioural changes of the past several months and his ridiculously intensified hunger drive were likely symptoms related to the location of lesions/tumors. We'd been testing his thyroid, bloodwork, etc with no unusual results to explain those issues, then - bang - massive seizures. If Beau does have lesions, his other symptoms may present very differently from Eddie's, as the lesions may be in different sections of the brain from Eddie's. I hope Beau has lots and lots of time left with you, no matter what the cause of the seizures.

[connie]

Jean, yes -- the couple with the Beardie described the changes in their boy, and as you note, the only commonality is that there were changes. Has Beau had behavioral changes? Sure, I can think of a few. Do I chalk them up to age, or the monster lurking in the background here? I have no idea. And like you, I fail to see the sense in spending a ton of money on something that might answer questions sooner than later, but won't cure anything or make a difference in treatment. My vet won't press me to get an MRI or do any treatment (assuming brain lesions are the topic); the young vet said 'I am so impressed by how realistic you are. I know this isn't easy but I think it's good you understand the way things may be, here.' I go to see my regular vet, Matt, at the end of this week, for Keppra.

Another friend today told me Beau needs NRT -- Nutritional Response Testing -- and I just can't even formulate a reply. Beau's been eating a diet that is in the top 1%, very likely, of all canine diets, for the past 7 years. He's not seizing because of what was in his dinner bowl -- and even if a food is a trigger, it's not the underlying cause of the seizures.

I'm as sad and depressed as I've ever been, over this. Beau is the one of my dogs who I never trained, on whom I placed no expectations, from whom I got no frustrations. He's just Beau, sweet and happy and barky and a little bit clueless. It breaks my heart that his calm, dignified old age is not as certain now as it was a year ago.

[Amanda]

I’m so sorry. This sounds quite a bit like what Freddy went through at the end. It is horribly unnerving. Landis’ dream paddling would send me over the edge in the middle of the night during and for a long time after Freddy’s episodes. It’s just not fun at all. I hope you don’t have any more. Watch him for head pressing, standing in corners, staring into space. Those signs can be subtle, but when I looked back at Freddy with eyes looking for those signs, they were all there. I hope it’s not what you fear, but if it is, he is lucky to have you by his side either way.

[BuddTX]

I could write for hours about my dog, and her transient ischemic attacks (TIA), or the dog equivalent of a TIA. I had a TIA in 2012, so I am familiar with a TIA.

I believe my dog had 3 or 4. the first time, I took her to a specialty clinic in Houston (https://www.gcvs.com/) and did a complete Neurology workup on her. No permanent brain damage, and no tumors.

First attack was crazy, it was the middle of the night, and she got off the bed to go to outside (I have a dog door) and I was woken up to the sound of her going around in circles. Her left two legs were not working. I held her, and when she calmed down, I got some meat, and chewed up two baby aspirin and mixed it together, and miracle of miracles, she ate it without hesitation (my dog is a very picky eater). While I believe that my actions saved her life, the specialty vets were very concerned about the two baby aspirin that I gave her, they told me that aspirin was very bad for dogs. They told me never to do that again. My regular vet said that "no aspirin for dogs" is currently considered "best practice", but she commented about "just a few years ago", we gave dogs baby buffered or coated aspirin all the time.

Again, long story short, she is now on Clopidogrel, 8mg/day, and has not had any more TIA's. I have been on Clopidogrel also, (along with baby aspirin, and lots of fish oil) and have not had any more TIA's since 2012 either.

the Clodidogrel 8mg, I have to get from a special Vet compounding pharmacy here in Houston.

I hope Beau has no more issues!