Acupuncture expectations

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JudyL
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Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Wed May 02, 2018 3:21 pm

The backstory is that Benson has been limping on the right front, and I've improved everything I could find that would add to that problem. He had dry, cracked pads from the diuretics that are looking good again thanks to lanolin. Long-ish nails have been shortened, could be better and I'll continue to address that that over time. I added in fish oil, Dasuquin w/MSM, and last week started also giving HomeoPet Joint Stress homeopathic. Nothing is working, and I've squeezed, poked & prodded all around and can't find the source of trouble, and I don't know that he specifically injured himself either.

He had a checkup last week with x-rays and vet could not figure this out either or even find the source of pain. The x-rays showed nothing of significance and no arthritis. The limp is fairly pronounced when first rising and when he's moving slowly, less so when he gets moving, but that is only because the weight bearing phase of the gait is of lesser duration. Occasionally he will hold up the foot for a brief moment, but he doesn't react at all to any exam of the foot, leg or shoulder. There's a possibility that it's some spinal involvement, but again, he doesn't react at all there either, so vet today suggested some sort of impingement is a possibility. He's on so many meds now that impact the kidneys that he can't have the typical anti-inflammatories. I asked about either acupuncture or chiro and opted for the acupuncture to start.

He had the first session today and was very good, although he panted throughout the entire session. He was revved up for the entire ride there, throughout the appointment, and most of the way back home, and it was 90F here with poor air quality too, so today was a very poor day for him to endure a warm car ride.

This vet said that most patients do not show any improvement after one session, but some owners think so. I actually think he's worse than before we went, and he had somewhat urgent and slightly loose/sticky stool about an hour after we got back home. That was a surprise since he usually has very perfect poo, and on a regular schedule too.

I have another session scheduled for next Wednesday. She suggested the possibility of adding chiropractic to the treatment, but I'd like to know if the acupuncture is helping at all before adding in something else and then not knowing which is helping or hurting.

If anyone has suggestions, comments, or things I should expect or watch for, I'd love to hear others' experiences with this because it's all new to us.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby whiteboxerboy » Wed May 02, 2018 6:39 pm

I don't have much to offer but I hope you can get Benson's limp figured out. I'm sure you'll get input from others with more experience.

I'm not really surprised that he had icky poo afterwards. The stress of the car ride, the heat, the visit.... gah, thank doG Gringo can't read b/c he'd have an icky poo just from reading about it. Can you give him some banana and rice? That's my go to for Gringo when trouble starts and sometimes helps get him back on track.

I've always wondered if acupuncture hurts during or after when the muscles are already very painful. I envision the sore/painful muscles as being 'hot' already and then to have a needle poked in seems like it would hurt. I think i've heard that acupuncture doesn't or shouldn't hurt but I don't know, when my muscles are sore i don't know how it wouldn't hurt.

I'm curious why you chose/vet recommended acupuncture before chiro? I wonder how they decide which is better/more appropriate for which injuries? Gringo saw the chiro weekly for 4 weeks, also had cold laser during the appointments, and was noticeably improved at the end. He's finally lifting his right leg to pee again- he hadn't done that for over a year, since Fannie attacked him. We'd been for one other round of chiro a while back but it wasn't that effective. This time was great for him. If the vet can figure out what's wrong or at least the general area you might ask about cold laser. Gringo LOVED it so much he forgot all about 'pet me don't touch me' and would sit in vet's lap while he did the laser. That was shocking to me, he won't even sit in MY lap.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby connie » Wed May 02, 2018 7:22 pm

I've had acupuncture treatments myself, and the needles don't hurt -- there's a sensation when they are placed, but they don't hurt, and I'm a total wimp, so I think all kinds of things hurt.

The description of B's symptoms makes me wonder if his back is out of whack, and is referring pain into a leg or lower extremity. For that reason, I probably would have gone with chiro over acupuncture: chiro is likely to fix the problem, while I view acupuncture as a pain management tool. I agree, I wouldn't do both at once, though.

Peeks, my Merle Girl with IVDD, gets chiro adjustments every 3 months to keep her herniated disc from causing a flare. If she were to have a flare, she'd get acupuncture for the discomfort, and wouldn't get chiro again until a couple weeks after the flare had ended.

Also love cold laser, Rowley had a few treatments when he had that pulled groin muscle last winter. But you really have to know where the problem is before you can put a cold laser on it. :crazy:

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby maxs_mommy » Wed May 02, 2018 10:53 pm

I might try chiro, you should see immediate improvement in gait if it's going to work. Fwiw, Max always has a weird poo after a chiro or cold laser appointment. We haven't done acupuncture so I can't speak to that.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Thu May 03, 2018 9:00 am

Gah, did I choose the wrong treatment?! The reason I chose acupuncture was because the first vet was on the fence between the two options and felt that acupuncture might help more if it was some soft tissue injury. She said the only response she got was a little shiver when she was touching and feeling in the shoulder area. Meh, he was well behaved and compliant as usual, but he does shiver intermittantly with being nervous. I suspected that was the shiver she felt that was not a pain response.

Connie's and Lynn's posts are encouraging me to not be afraid of chiropractic adjustments if this is a bulging disk issue. Part of my choice was also because I've heard that chiros can really do some damage if it's a herniated or bulging disk, and as a person that had 2 lumbar herniations at the same time that healed on their own, I can't imagine having anyone work on me during the period when I had such excrutiating pain. I sometimes tweak my back and will have pain that shoots either left or right to a hip, much like sciatica without the pain going down the leg, and when that happens my leg will go weak and almost collapse that is pretty scary. Then everything tightens up and the cycle continues. My fears and pain are totally at the fore when making some decisions for Benson too. :crazy:

Ben has another acupuncture appointment for next Wed, and that vet suggested that I could do that and chiro at the same time. I really think that would be too much for the little guy at one time. The time there and back home plus one appointment is plenty enough for him without having to deal with a second exam and additional manipulation.

First vet also suggested the possibility of adding gabapentin, but I really don't want to add in any other chemicals because he's already off-label on some of his meds and is a walking chemical factory as is. More importantly, he is very stable and tolerating everything very well, so there's no way I want to upset that delicate balalncing act that we have going for him.

Sorry for the long posts. I'm really glad we're reviving the forum. No way I'd want this discussion on FB with the armchair warriors with one liners of advice.

If I decide to try the chiropractic adjustments, how long should I wait between the acupuncture and that?

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby connie » Thu May 03, 2018 10:01 am

Peeks has a bulging disc and that's the cause of her IVDD. The disc can be felt in her spine, even I can feel it. The one time she had a flare, she was in such pain that it was impossible to miss the signs of it. Once the Prednisone and Tramadol kicked in, my vet said to wait two weeks before doing a chiro adjustment, and I did, and since then she's gone in for an adjustment with him about every 3 months. She hasn't had a flare since then, and I now know the signs to look for and I keep Pred and Tramadol on hand so we don't end up in the e-vet again.

So that's the deal on chiro with disc issues. If B is flinching away from touch at a certain area of his back, then he'd need painkillers and anti-inflammatories; but it doesn't sound like he's displaying that. After the vet does an exam of his spine, I'd think a chiro adjustment would be fine to do now. Don't be afraid that you won't get the pain signals from your dog if he's putting them out.

I see the logic in offering acupuncture; in my experience, though, soft tissue injuries are frequently caused by misalignments of the spine or hips or shoulders, and chiro is my go-to for those also.

And like you, I'd try everything else before throwing drugs at the problem. JMO. If my dog has a chronic condition that requires drugs, okay, but it doesn't seem like B is there right now.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Thu May 03, 2018 10:20 am

Thank you! That makes a lot of sense to me. He didn't show any sign of pain in the back or spine when either vet examined him. If he's in some pain, it is slight enough to cause the continued limping but not enough to curb his enthusiasm for treats or a handout after dinner when he will still spin around and circle the table before running to the kitchen with an odd gait.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby emmas_mom » Thu May 03, 2018 12:22 pm

While I've used acupuncture for two dogs, neither was for this specific problem. In one case (arthritic old Belle) I saw almost an immediate improvement - but I think we did acupuncture twice, two days apart. In the other case (Caleb with cancer), I didn't notice much difference except he was more relaxed after the treatment.
That said, I use both acupuncture and chiropractics for myself, and while there are likely big differences I do have to say that when I tore my meniscus in my knee, and when I total blew my rotator cuff in my shoulder, it was acupuncture that both my doctor and my regular chiropractor (seen once a month for a spinal issue) recommended - the laser kind. The relief to the knee was noticeable the day after the first treatment, and I went back for a few more, each about three days apart. The acupuncturist did say that it works best if you do two or three treatments close together (three in a week) at first, then extend the timing between any additional ones that might be needed. The relief to the shoulder was somewhat noticeable after the second treatment, and markedly noticeable after the fourth.
The thing about these types of injuries is that they don't show on xrays - and in the case of my shoulder, after the first few months (it was a very bad injury), the pain only occurs with certain actions - in my case, reaching forward with that arm to turn on a tap or get something at the back of a cupboard. I can't raise it now as the injury was irreparable, but if I manually lift it up with the other arm, it is painful even though it is fine at rest or when the doctor prods around. I don't know if dogs get torn rotator cuffs?
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Thu May 03, 2018 12:44 pm

I took a video of him limping last week that I took with me to the appointments. I couldn't remember how to include it here, so it is on facebook, limited to ODO friends. I don't need sad face from his breeder on there.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby maxs_mommy » Thu May 03, 2018 3:19 pm

I saw the video, poor guy. He's wobbly alright. When he's relaxed is his lumbar throwing out heat? Max has compressed vertebrae in his neck and lumbar region and I know he's in need of adjustment when those spots are hot to the touch. I honestly feel like Max's adjustments are more thorough than mine so there's less chance of exacerbating problems.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby MaisyPancakes » Thu May 03, 2018 4:52 pm

Oh shit, Benson, quit it, please! Judy, you must be so worried. I’m so sorry! ☹️

Just from what you described about the day/car ride/vet, I wouldn’t be too worried about the bad poop. I’d have a bad one, too. ;)

Did you go to a regular vet or a specialist (like a rehab/ortho type)? If I learned anything from MP, it is to just go straight to a doggone specialist after maybe one check in with the regular vet...if possible. Everything from diagnostic process to treatment plans are like a whole different world of tools. At least that was my experience. Another thing about x-rays is that it’s more of a crap shoot than you’d think, even if they're good ones! MP’s rads didn’t look as bad to a radiologist at the University as she was exhibiting, and reading those notes ("looks unremarkable considering the symptoms", my rehab vet noted that certain things just don’t show up as dramatically as one would assume, and that her shoulder rads *do* look pretty bad to her (so, in this case, a “general” radiologist is missing a lot of info that a rehab specialist w/specific familiarity of imaging could see). Anyway, so, they often said, “treat the dog; not the labs.” I also found that X-rays can vary quite a bit in quality, too: in a general environment, you’re concerned about everyone's stress levels, etc. (as they should be!!!)—and you do what you can, as quickly as you can. At the U, they just knock ‘em all out and get what they need, no matter what. (I think I’m rambling, but what I'm trying to say rather shittily is that there’s lots of variables to imaging—so when they "Don't see anything," it could be the capturing or the interpreting. :) )

I’m a little worried about chiro unless it is someone who is like a chiro jesus—at least with all these unknowns! Just am! :S I personally wouldn’t until you know more. Maybe see a chiro for an exam, w/o treatment?

Laser is pretty harmless unless it’s a hugely stressful event—then it’s just not worth it as a crapshoot treatment. (Crapshoot, as in, not really sure where to even treat, per se.) Class 4 is the type most places use, because it is super strong and deeply penetrating, and *fast*; but it can also seriously burn (it can get pretty hot—laser heat + friction) if they’re not moving the wand constantly, and you lose a lot of "beams" to scatter. Class 3 is the older technology, but it won’t burn and you keep the wand in place (= no loss to scatter). It takes about 2x (?) as long and doesn’t penetrate as deeply, but Benson is little and it was plenty strong for MP. And, with some patients like MP, it can definitely lower seizure threshold because of all the dilation. To minimize risk, my rehab vet manually dialed down the Class 4 settings to Class 3 level. It took longer, but was muuuuuuch safer. Depending on where you go, they have "less trained" personnel (just assistants; not techs) do the laser because the machines come with cookie-cutter programs that's determined by weight/coat/size/type of issue ("acute pain vs arthritis"). Pros and cons for that, since it's usually cheaper than a doctor or certified tech doing it, but then you don't have a doctor or tech doing it. ;)

If it turns out to be a relatively straightforward soft tissue/muscle issue, you could try needle trigger point therapy—it’s like releasing spams via acupuncture needle. (It’s not acupuncture at all.) This does not feel good (it can be owie) but it is quick and can release the knot when nothing else can. MP had to have it done a few times.

I think acupuncture is pretty safe unless it’s horribly stressful for Ben. Some vets won’t do acupuncture and chiro on the same day. Too much for a lot of older, frailer fuzz. :) I think it can be very helpful for improving general wellness, more than symptom specific stuff.

What is his regular pain tolerance? Is he usually pretty vocal/squeaky/obvious when something is even a little bit owie (i.e., is he usually stoic or a big fluffy baby?) Any other signs of pain? (Can't settle, panting, avoidance, etc.) Sometimes they just can’t move their bodies right for other reasons (e.g., neuro) and their gait wonkiness is not pain related.

I hear you about wanting to avoid drugs! If he is crazy inflamed, you may have to do something so that he can actually heal. Your doctor should be able to find a way around the kidney issue, whether by meds or icing or whatever. Galliprant is a newer drug that is marketed as a non-NSAID anti-inflammatory because it isn't your standard COX-inhibitor. I believe it's been most successful w/dogs that are just starting to be owie. I couldn't give it the time it needed to see if it would work with MP and ended up with Metacam towards the end.

If you can, try to get as many videos as you can to show vets you might see later. I’d put the camera down on ground level or about B’s eye-level, and let him walk through the field of view a few times. Have him walk towards the camera, and also get side views. Try a rise from a down, sit, etc. Easier said than done, I know!!! ;)

This is bringing back some massive owie-related feelings and anxieties *and* I'm kinda short on time, so apologies for the unedited novel! I hope it makes sense.

Many hugs to you guys!!!

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby Aubergine » Thu May 03, 2018 5:40 pm

I saw Benson's video on FB, and I can see that he just doesn't seem right, especially right after getting up. Poor little guy :(

Just going to chime in on laser treatment! Nutmeg got laser treatments as part of her TPLO "package" last year, and I really think it helped her heal up well. Her TPLO leg is looking perfect, she has not had any issues with it since.

Possibly as a result of the surgery, or some neurological issue, or old age, or pain, or... whatever, her *other* rear leg has been slipping. It's as if she puts all her weight on the surgical leg and the other one slides around.I can't tell if it's hurting her, or she's just being lazy. Anyway, it's been getting worse lately so I took her in for six laser treatments and I really do think it helped. She was putting weight on the leg immediately after the first treatment, and while she still does slip a bit, to my eye it seems like she's better. Slipping is less common and she's more likely to trot around and go up and down stairs. She has way fewer "gimpy" days since doing the laser treatment, and adding daily gabapentin. I am glad I went back for more laser for her. I never tried chiro or accupuncture... I'm just a little skeptical of them, especially the former.

Nana your info was so helpful. I admit I don't know anything about lasers... I just thought I would give it a try and am pleasantly surprised. The people doing it at my vet's office are technicians, not assistants, who do it, and from what I can see, they manually set the machine. Next time I'm in I'll have to ask more about it. (It will also help to pass the somewhat awkward 5 minutes once I run out of things to chat about with the tech! ;) )

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby MaisyPancakes » Thu May 03, 2018 7:40 pm

So glad that laser is helping the 'Meg, and that she is overall doing so much better! :D I think laser is the new "low-risk/high-returns" service that many places are offering, and it really is truly great in so many ways! (The only reason why I said "crapshoot" earlier re: Benson was because we're assuming we don't know what/where is painful/affected—so, they'd be pretty much guessing what to laser.) For most (say, 98% of the cases!), the presets (which still take a little set up time) are totally appropriate and it is really safe as long as you keep moving it around. I know that the humans at the clinic use the machine for their own knees, etc. ;)

Gabapentin can help with pain (esp. if used as adjunct w/NSAIDs) but also contributes to grogginess a bit, so it can sometimes seem like they're actually more wobbly/less active in some cases—which sure can make it difficult to tell if their mobility is improving or not. :) Have you tried traction boots or grippy nail or paw stuff? It might help, both for practical reasons and for relearning proper foot placement.

This stuff is pretty *etched hard* into my brain still, so am happy to be of any help!

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby Aubergine » Thu May 03, 2018 8:42 pm



Gabapentin can help with pain (esp. if used as adjunct w/NSAIDs) but also contributes to grogginess a bit, so it can sometimes seem like they're actually more wobbly/less active in some cases—which sure can make it difficult to tell if their mobility is improving or not. :) Have you tried traction boots or grippy nail or paw stuff? It might help, both for practical reasons and for relearning proper foot placement.

This stuff is pretty *etched hard* into my brain still, so am happy to be of any help!
Thanks, and sorry to :sign_hijack: She has a boot that we put on if she's having a particularly slippy day. A big part of the problem is that our kitchen tiles are in fact the smoothest surface known to humanity - like black ice in ceramic format - and I've almost wiped out myself several times :lol: She's a bit better on the laminate or other surfaces. Honestly, though, after a few laser sessions, she is a lot more willing to put weight on that leg, and to compensate when she started to wobble. It really is remarkable! Funnily enough, gabapentin seems to have the opposite effect on ol' Nummers. When the vet said it might have a sedative effect, I was actually kind of looking forward to that... but no luck. She is nuts. :crazy:

Anyway, Judy, I hope you're able to get some treatment for Benson, and I'm definitely on Team Laser, if, as Nana says, you and your vet can figure out where the trouble spot is :love:

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby LisaT_II » Thu May 03, 2018 11:04 pm

When my neck was really bad, acupuncture made it worse because it seemed to relax the muscles into the misalignment. That nerve pain is pretty awful. I would definitely try a chiro if you have a referral to a good one. I know of several dogs that the neurologists at UC Davis said had no hope and indy's chiro got them walking again.

There, of course, is a chance there is something sinister interfering with the spinal canal, but that would be something very bad like a brain tumor, just to be straight up with you.

Always worth checking medication side effects. For example, neurontin made my mom wobble kinda like that, and there may be some neurologic side effect or interaction with some of them. I have no idea if this could be something weird like electrolytes or acetylcholine, etc, all of which are affected by some meds.

My go-to would be a chiro exam. It is possible though by now you are seeing some improvement from the acu?

Alpha Lipoic Acid is my go-to supplement for nerve pain, if that's what this is. Jazz at 17 pounds gets 50 mg a day. It also seems to help keep her seizures/tremors in control. For my dogs with nerve pain, I wasn't able to elicit it, it just hurt it seems. The ALA was quick, could tell in a matter of a couple of days.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby Amanda » Fri May 04, 2018 9:14 pm

Acupuncture seemed to help Zeke. And I think it will help relax muscles that may impede the work of a chiro, so don’t stress about having chosen the “wrong” method first. I have used trigger point injections before and just the needle into the spasming knot helped to relax it before the lidocaine went in. So I think it works.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby whiteboxerboy » Thu May 10, 2018 7:35 pm

How is Benson doing?

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Fri May 11, 2018 9:49 am

Lame. The dog is still off, and the treatments are lame! It is not helping; if anything, it made him much worse. I have another session scheduled for next week that I am cancelling!

He's always excited and a little whiny going in the car, but he is usually calmed down by the time we arrive and is compliant and not terribly stressed for whatever the vet's and techs do to him. The specialty hospital staff and doctors love him and always compliment him on how good he is. He never comes back panting. He was also good for the exam in this practice with the vet we normally see. Not so with this vet or his first acupuncture session! This vet that does the acupuncture works there part-time, but is one that I've never seen before and was not the one that did Benson's exam or x-rays, so naturally she did another exam. She seemed to be gentle but Benson panted the entire time we were there and didn't settle until we were almost home. I tried to explain that he was excited from the ride and stressed, that he was NOT panting because he was hot, because he has a plush coat, or because he was having difficulty breathing. The appointment was scheduled at a perfect time for his meds to be fully in effect, and his RRR is typically in the 24-28 per minute range FFS! Vet only put in 6-7 needles and at least 2 of them fell out with me holding him on the table. She tried putting one back in low on the chest, kind of in front of the armpit and he squawked. I think it fell out again before we were done. He was more lame that evening and all the next day that gradually improved back to our starting lameness over the course of the week.

Vet told me not to expect any improvement with only one session, so I took him for a second one 2 days ago, and he was mega stressed for the car ride and throughout the entire session. She did another exam and she flexed his wrist and elbow joints, still trying to get a reaction. Again, lots of panting and her saying he was hot. He was not hot, rather super stressed. Again, comments about the heavy coat. He has a long coat but not that heavy since I can easily comb him with a metal tooth comb. She thought maybe he'd be better to lift him down on the floor, and warned me not to let him lick or try to get at the needles. He was fine with that, but he gave a little shake and at least 4 of the needles fell out. I was picking up needles and she picked him up and back on the table. She picked him up by grabbing him around the ribs with both hands, no support of the hind end. There was no effect, but geez, if he had any sort of spinal problem, that is not the thing to do and she didn't wait for me to put him back on the table. The entire time he was on the table he was pushing against this fuzzy cloth and was and trying to get into my arms. Finally he settled with his left side plastered up against my stomach as he pushed away from her and making this stupid cloth try to continually slide away from him and us. I had that stupid cloth trapped with my forearms somehow so it wouldn't move. I wasn't touching or holding near any of the needles but more needles fell out. We were finally done, and again, it took him most of the ride back home to calm down and stop panting.

I can't emphasize enough that the stress and panting is very unusual for him. He was very good and calm for the entire exam with our regular vet before this. I don't think she believed me that the panting is out of character for him. He was noticeably more lame again all that evening and into yesterday, probably from the exam. I am not going to subject him to any more of that. We are both so very done with all of that.

I spent the last few days teaching him to go down the ramp that we had for the girls to try to minimize any jarring to whatever is bothering him. He caught on quickly and uses it most of the time to go down and is using the steps to come back up. I guess that is something positive. I taught him something new for the training challenge for May.

That's where we are at this point. Sorry this is so long, and thanks for asking.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby SherriA » Fri May 11, 2018 10:18 am

Oh Judy, how frustrating! I'm sorry this has been so stressful for Benson, and for you.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby connie » Fri May 11, 2018 11:08 am

I think you've both had enough of that modality with that particular vet. How frustrating. Well, if it is a soft-tissue injury, it will heal in time, even if acupuncture isn't going to help that healing.

And if that the same vet who offers chiro, I would absolutely not subject B to that.

The downside to the ready availability of alternative modalities now is that many of the practitioners are just not very good. I get the distinct sense that you experienced that with this vet, Judy.

I have been going to the same chiro for my dogs for 20 years now; he is not a DVM but is a DC who switched from treating people to treating animals many years ago after a friend asked him to adjust some racehorses at Arlington Park. This chiro has the best touch I have ever found, and he taught chiropractic at The Healing Oasis for many years, too. Because he's not a DVM, I have to have a referral on file from my DVM, which has never been a problem -- my DVM doesn't want me to smack him upside his head, I guess.

Anyway, there are other chiros around here now, vets who have done the training, and they are nowhere near as good as my guy (who has a booming business, happily) -- I had Rowley adjusted by one of them last winter when I couldn't get in to see Sig at short notice, and Rowley, who has had chiro adjustments for 8 years, did NOT take the vet's adjustments well at all.

I wish it were easier to tell the good from the bad in the areas of chiro and acupuncture. The best way I know is to ask people who do dog sports, because if they use these modalities, they find their way to the good practitioners and don't bother with people like the vet who thought Benson was overheated when he was actually stressed. :confused: :frown:

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby emmas_mom » Fri May 11, 2018 3:00 pm

Judy, I'm sorry you and Benson had this experience. Sounds like Benson picked up on something the acupuncture vet was giving off - a smell, a state of mind, a muscle tension or something - and it also sounds like the vet didn't know her stuff very well (including not knowing to listening to the pet's owner and to trust the owner's knowledge of what is or is not usual for the dog!). With the dogs I've had treated, there was never a needle fall out, and both dogs became totally relaxed within seconds of being in her hands and throughout the whole session. I do hope Benson improves soon and you get to the bottom of this.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby Jen » Sat May 12, 2018 10:00 am

Canceling definitely sounds like the right decision. I’m sorry your experience was terrible. I wish you could visit connie’s chiro and my acupuncturist.

I think alternative med vets are the hot breed right now, so there are a lot of backyard breeder level practitioners. It’s sad. :(

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby maxs_mommy » Thu May 17, 2018 11:25 am

I would cancel too, which sucks because it's hard to find someone sometimes. Are there other docs in your area that do acupuncture or chiro? I agree that a doc who doesn't listen is the worst. YOU know your dog best and clearly dismissing your knowledge isn't helpful to Ben's healing.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby whiteboxerboy » Thu May 17, 2018 6:48 pm

How is Benson doing?

I asked my chiro vet if he knows anyone in Delaware.
He does not but he suggested TCVM.COM.

I dunno, if you found a different person in your area maybe you could look for reviews on yelp.com or go meet them before taking Benson in?

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby connie » Fri May 18, 2018 5:01 am

You can try looking in the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association listing to find a practitioner near you; unfortunately, there's only one listing in DE, though.
http://animalchiropractic.org/avca-doctor-search-1.htm

Some very good chiros aren't listed in here -- mine isn't -- but at least this doesn't limit the selection to only DVMs who do chiro. The DE listing is of Steven Fries, in Newcastle/Kent County, which the interwebz tells me IS near you, Judy.

This article from WDJ is old but really good, about chiropractic treatment:
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issue ... 477-1.html

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby JudyL » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:13 pm

I've been thinking that Benson is slowly getting better and didn't want to jinx his recovery by posting too soon. He's still off at times after sleeping for longer periods, but the lameness is noticeably less than before. I've been pampering him and trying my best to keep him calm so that he doesn't reinjure himself. I've been carrying him in and out a lot of the time since he has to go out so frequently and I don't want him pounding on that wrist or leg going down the total of 5 steps so many times a day and night. I think it's working.

I've been thinking that it was in the wrist area because he'd occassionally squeak when I'd touch him there or move it a certain way like when clipping his nails or moving the leg while combing him. I decided against trying the chiropractic adjustment, mostly because he was so very stressed with the exam and acupuncture, and the chiro would involve more stressful car rides, another exam, and being treated by a man, and he's fearful of men. With all of that stacked against him, I just couldn't do it to him.

One other change is that I decided to take him back off the Dasuquin and fish oil since his emergency visit to the e-vet with breathing issues that weren't heart related. He seemed congested, but he was also very distressed with tense belly and back because of the air in his stomach, and the vets were sure what the cause of all of this episode was. One suggestion on release was that it could have all been some sort of GI upset or pancreatitis. The addition of the supplements was new recently around the same time that I noticed that he seemed uncomfortable and was drinking a lot more, so those have been discontinued.

Connie, the chiro you linked to is Dr Fries, and he is the chiro that practices out of my current vet's ofice. He's actually a human chiropractor that also works on animals. The vets tell me he's good, but after some of the other experiences with this office and the acupuncturist, I take it all with a grain of salt.

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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby maxs_mommy » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:22 pm

I'm glad Benson is mending even if it is a two-step dance. I wish I could give you my chiropractor but since I can't I'll just say to go with your gut on who to trust for his care, he's in good hands.
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby SherriA » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:56 am

I'm so glad to hear he's improving!
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Re: Acupuncture expectations

Postby connie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:34 pm

LOL! I hear that, Judy -- I don't bestow much credibility on members of the veterinary community, often. At least if you did want to explore that option, it's nearby.

I'm glad Benson's getting better. Soft tissue injuries heal slowly, esp in dogs that are of mature, dignified, wise years. :cool:


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