Thuja and Lyssin?

[Amanda]

Anyone familiar with these homeopathics for vaccine detox? I've had a few people suggest that perhaps a factor in zeke's temperament issues could be from getting all of his vaccines at the same time. I did DHPP, bordatella, and rabies at the same visit both around 5 months and 14 months I think (I'll have to look at exact dates again). He started growling at children around 15/16 months. I am asking my vet, but they are available over the counter and I am wondering if giving it a try isn't worth the small cost for the meds. I did some searching and found some people that posted links but several are broken now. If you know of resources, I'd love some info. Thanks!

[emmas_mom]

I know thuja was one of the things my holistic vet put Caleb on to boost his immune system when he was diagnosed with cancer (and some sources claim it has anti-cancer properties independent of that) but I can't say it made any difference, especially as he was also on chinese herbal remedies and conventional meds at the same time. One of the sanctuaries I've worked with also uses thuja on the potbellied pigs - I think for arthritis. With very few exceptions, I've found little solid research to support the use of homeopathics, though there are a couple I still use myself (arnica, and one with a very long name that I use for colds).

[UpwardDog]

I gave thuja to rosie on the off chance homeopathy works and that her dog aggression that showed up late in life was related to her rabies vax. No difference, but cheap to try.

[MaisyPancakes]

I feel like homeopathy has worked pretty well for some things, but not at all for others. The stuff that I've found useful are nux vomica (tummy/nausea), fragaria vesca (tartar on teeth), cantharis (UTI), and a menstrual cramps combo remedy. I'm pretty sure that Topricin (ointment/lotion) has helped both MP and I for acute pain. I also gave MP some nosodes and remedies for tick disease because it seemed like a safe thing to try, insurance covers it, and it made me feel like I was doing something . I'd say give it a shot since it's pretty low cost and what if it helps even a little? I'm all for science, but still hold plenty of room in my heart-brain for things that can't be measured, for lots of unknowns, and for magical powers...even though they keep finding ways to prove that homeopathy isn't effective.

[connie]

I think the condition you're referring to is 'rabies miasm', Amanda? I have heard of it and read a good deal about it.

Lyssin is the homeopathic remedy for vaccinosis caused by the rabies vaccine. Lyssin is is supposedly made from the saliva of a rabid dog, which for me is the first clue that this is BS, because there hasn't been a rabid dog in the United States since before I was born, so where did they get the saliva?

Thuja is the homeopathic remedy for vaccinosis caused by vaccines other than rabies. I've never seen any effect from using either remedy, but I am quite firmly a non-believer in homeopathy after trying it for various things for many years, so I probably have a bias.

If you are interested in treating rabies miasm in Zeke, my suggestion would be to consult a homeopathic veterinarian; many of them will do telephone consults with your regular vet. I do know someone who had great success, apparently, with homeopathy in a dog that had serious behavior issues, but it was not a single remedy or dose and it took some time.

This vet has some good info that might help you decide: http://certifiedvethomeopath.com/treat-rabies-miasm/

[Amanda]

I tend to have the same opinion and asked the same exact question... where in the world do they get the saliva from a rabid dog??? I ended up buying the thuja just for the heck of it. It's supposed to get rid of warts too and Landis has puppy warts now that his immune system is depressed.

This next part is kind of me processing things in writing. Chime in if you want to, but mostly I just want to talk about it with someone and have no one that I think would want to hash it out with me. I don't have a lot of experience with dogs like Zeke. He is so sensitive and his anxieties seem to be get worse and then better then worse sometimes. Last night we were doing a shaping session while the kids played video games. He was giving them huge whale eye and panicking to get out of the way if they walked behind him. Two days before he had a huge fear aggression reaction to John in a straw hat. I am sure it is stacked triggers in some way, but I don't know. Sometimes I watch him and get the feeling he isn't stable. I don't want to talk about this stuff because the reality is that the solution is to put him to sleep. I can't rehome him if I conclude he isn't stable. I don't think my home is the best place for him regardless of his mental stability. It's stressful on him. I don't think my house is crazy stressful, and my kids are really some of the best behaved that I know. (Not biased... truly they are good kids.) But just the nature of kids in our home is hard on him. I am not healthy right now either. I am trying to reduce my stress load because the smallest things seem to trip me into shutdown mode. Zeke is a huge stressor, but he's not an easy solution. I think I may try to post him out for adoption again but expand my range to farther away. The Midwest has more hunters than California. On the one hand, I don't want to give up, but on the other I am not sure it will ever get better and I don't know if I can keep up the management and worry.

It's a lot of hemming and hawing and there is no right answer. Just feeling caught between a rock and a hard place right now.

[UpwardDog]

Is he on any medication for anxiety, like an SSRI?

[Amanda]

No anxiety meds other than some adaptosode which is similar to rescue remedy.

[MaisyPancakes]

If you haven't tried already and want to try OTC stuff, L-theanine (Suntheanine is a good brand for that) might help—it's what's in Composure treats. That would be helpful and safe for any human, too.

[emmas_mom]

Not sure if it is available where you are, but my vet put Maggie on hemp-based CBD oil for anxiety. I'm pretty sure it helps, though as Mags is a new rescue, I don't know how much of her improvement is based on just settling in, and how much is the CBD oil. My vet reports good outcomes with it on other dogs, and a couple of friends have also used it with success. Mags still has her moments though.

[Amanda]

I have l-theanine but didn't see much change. I will try it again now that his thyroid should be stabilized. I tried some CBD treats that a friend gave me but it didn't make much difference there either. Maybe he would need to take it consistently? DH is not a fan of this idea. Thank you for the suggestions. Taking it a day at a time at the moment.

[MaisyPancakes]

You kind of have to give a lot more CBD than the "one size fits all" dosage. I've found that capsules from Canna companion and oils from Endoca have been most effective for MP. These are all hemp derived so no thc—but you're in CA so could get VetCBD oils that's supposed to be a really good product made from MJ.

[Amanda]

I think CBD oil is going to be cost prohibative for me. $40 for 3-5 days worth of oil depending on the place I buy it isn't feasible for us. Unless I am reading dosage incorrectly.

[MaisyPancakes]

??? Are you using the concentrates that come in the syringe? Those are $$$. Endoca oils are about $32/bottle and lasts nearly a month (3-5 drops, 1-2x/day for Zeke)

[Amanda]

The vetcbd looks to be $$$. And I will need a vet rx which I know my vet will give me, but just suffice to say that DH is not interested in even discussing this topic so I am treading softly. I'll look up the endoca oils. I think I need some hand holding here. Where can I find proper dosages for dogs (or myself? This all gives me anxiety too ) And many of the websites I am looking at won't tell you what the benefits are or things like that because they are gagged by the FDA.

[connie]

Amanda, I totally get all your concerns, and I do not think they are unfounded. I wish they were, but I know you have the ability to recognize what you're living with.

The only thing I don't follow is the end result being the dog PTS. Can you not find a rescue -- either for his breed, or for hunting dogs in general? I know the Border Collie rescue I worked with has taken in quite a few dogs who have sensitivities similar to Zeke's, and have found them homes with experienced BC owners and places with no kids. That's kind of the purpose of breed rescue, to be able to find homes for dogs with certain temperaments and requirements. (Sorry, I don't mean to sound patronizing. I too am just thinking aloud here.) I would explore that possibility and see if it holds any hope. I know you will keep Zeke rather than letting his life come to an early end, but that may not be the optimal solution here. Maybe there is a place he can or should be, you just don't know about it yet!

[Amanda]

A local trainer here sells CBD. He said we would likely need 7-14 mg 2x per day to see a change, if any, which means a roughly $40 bottle will last me 10 days at the high dose, 20 days on the low end. I don't think I can do that. It's already a tough sell for my DH and the cost will just be an absolute no.

Connie, I honestly don't think I could choose to PTS. He is super happy and pleasant without his triggers. The question just becomes finding someone that will take him. My boss is going to come out to do a consult for me as if I were a client and give me a second set of eyes to watch his reactions and body language. I just find myself stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am coming ever closer to the conclusion that he can't stay here. And if he can't stay here, and I can't find an appropriate place to send him, what do I do? If I rehome him, I lose control of what happens to him. So I will have to be exceedingly careful that he goes to savvy home. I need someone with the ability to read body language and the ability to manage him carefully. Or simply never take him anywhere or have guests. If he hurts someone because whoever he goes to isn't experienced enough or doesn't take him seriously, I will have to carry that as much as I would carry guilt for making any other choice. Alternatively, I suppose he could go to a less skilled home in the boonies. He would make a decent watch dog for a country property. So long as anyone they didn't want bitten was given proper warning, they'd be ok, I guess.

From my search before, no rescues would take him due to his bite risk. I guess in my effort to explain that I wasn't just dumping him for convenience I made him sound too scary. I don't know. I didn't get any messages back from the rescues I emailed. I had one lady that posted him on her website for several weeks and I got zero bites. I did put in that post that his new home has to be within driving distance. Maybe lifting that restriction would open up some new options. I do feel that living with us doesn't ever let him decompress completely. My kids are a stressor to him on some level, so I feel like he is constantly operating just under threshold. Even coming to work with me is another place where he gets elevated. He blew up today at a new employee at work who was standing in the hallway with his back to him. New person! New person! Must scare them away even though they are not looking at me! It's kind of like the thing I tell so many students... dog's don't generalize well. Zeke is definitely the poster child. He KNOWS his people and everyone else is DANGER! Especially those unpredictable, loud, miniature humans.

My most recent lightbulb moment was to maybe start shooting some video of him. Lots of his tricks, skills, and affectionate nature. Perhaps a couple of his bad reactions to send privately to serious inquiries. Then I could put together a webpage or something to showcase his good side and see if I get any bites from people. I am also thinking of heading out to the local hunt training day next month to see if he will show off a bit and get some video of that also. Basically market him and show off his pros while mentioning his cons and giving more detail to those that are genuinely interested. I would like to believe a better place is out there for him. They just seem really well hidden and tough to find. His dog-dog dynamic is tough also, but not impossible. He will be fine with proper introductions and management.

And then I look at him sleeping at my feet and my heart breaks and I just still can't believe this is happening.

[connie]

It does sound heartbreaking, I can only imagine, and just that makes me incredibly sad ...

I wonder if you start at the national level and work your way down, if you could find a breed rescue that would be a home-finder for him. Has he actually bitten anyone? If he has not, then I think maybe you did overstate your concern: I know most rescues won't be able to adopt out, and therefore take in, a dog with a bite history. But that is not always true!

Last year, in the BC rescue I volunteered with, a young female BC was pulled from a shelter in MN. She was taken into foster by a rescue member who is a certified (APDT, I believe) trainer; this person also has 5 BCs of her own and a small child. Many people thought the foster placement was not good, given the rescue dog's shelter referral of 'no children in the home' and the number of dogs already in the foster person's household. But the trainer/rescue member said she could do it. Well, she couldn't. One day she came into her kitchen to find all the dogs in there and her 4-year old daughter holding a slice of pizza; the foster dog was eyeing the pizza and moving in on it. The trainer/foster person sprang into action and SHE was bitten by the foster dog. The whole situation was SUCH a cluster-bleep that it caused a major kerfuffle in the rescue and several people left because of it. The trainer/foster mom was one. She insisted the dog be PTS and said it could have seriously hurt her child. Yes, it could have. And she ignored SO MANY flags in allowing that situation to even exist ... The shelter that turned the dog over to the rescue requested the dog back, developed a behavioral mod program for the dog in conjunction with a BC rescue person in MN, and I believe the dog has done well since then. The rescue was almost destroyed by the question of how to handle the dog, which is a lesson for all rescues but not the point here.

I think someone and/or some group would work with Zeke in a no-kid environment. I just wonder how to find that resource. It sounds like Z is just not comfortable with some things that are a fact of life in a household with children. Poor fella. Yet another smack upside the head for his breeder if I ever meet her ...

[Amanda]

I swear he is the most ridiculous emotional rollercoaster. He had a great day today. I watch my friend's kids on Fridays. We went to agility first before they came over where he was a stud. Then he spent a couple of hours in his crate. Then we took a pack walk with all the kids. He was so busy carrying his weighted backpack and looking for lizards that two added kids were not even on his radar. By the time we got home he could be on tie down in the same room while they ate a snack and watched TV without barking at them or anything. I am happy that he seemed able to adapt a tiny bit. Still very highly managed and lots of effort required to get him to that point, but he did it today without any eruptions at the kids.

I ended up finding some more anti-stress and anxiety reducing supplements to try. So he is now going to be taking L-theanine (again), a Chinese herbal blend called Spirit Calm, and another blend with magnolia and philodendron extract. And I have some lactium on order that I am planning to take myself and try with him also. Not expecting any miracles, but I am not ready to take the plunge back into rehoming him yet. Just when I feel like I've hit the end of my rope, I take a couple of days to think and then it feels mostly manageable again. So we trundle on...

[connie]

[connie]

On CBD oil: a friend of mine who does Reikki just decided to start selling CBD oil for dogs. I am going to look into it and may try it for some things in one or more of my dogs. I'm also going to ask the non-traditional vet at my clinic what she thinks of it, and what its best uses are. I would bet that as with other supplements, the quality of ingredients will be a big consideration, so knowing the sourcing is key. (MSM is a supplement like that: crap-quality MSM does nothing, but good MSM is a tremendous help with joint problems in dogs.)

I may re-start the practice of muscle-testing supplements on my dogs, I haven't done that for a while.

[UpwardDog]

I looked into CBD oil, thinking it might be an option for Rosie, and it's super expensive here too.
Tricky seemed significantly improved on Calm Shen by Herbsmith. I wasn't really sure if she was any different on lactium or l-theanine. Emily had good results with Calm Shen with one of her dogs too. I think I would just put him on an SSRI like prozac or whichever your vet is comfortable prescribing rather than play around with OTC products. If you've got a good vet open to meds for behaviour that is.

[UpwardDog]

I feel your pain on trying to find a rescue group or suitable home. I had no luck getting a rescue group here to even courtesy post Tricky.