Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

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whiteboxerboy
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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby whiteboxerboy » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:16 am

I hope the breeder does the right thing, whatever you think that is. I know I'd want ALL of his purchase price refunded and IMO she should be at least reimbursing for part of his medical expenses. She should be glad he came home with you guys, a dog savvy person & a loving family. I doubt he'd be getting as much attention/care if you had sent him back.

Im sorry for all of the disappointment after you were so thorough & selective.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:20 am

She is going to put me touch with someone who has a puppy from her that had d/e grade hips (e being worst in their scoring system) that she neutered and sold as a pet hunting dog. A year later the dog was re-xrayed and scored b/c so somehow was able to improve with age and exercise. I know that is possible because OFA will not give an official score until 2 years of age because they can change. She wants to see his X-rays which I should have tomorrow afternoon. We go in for a bandage change and check on the tail tomorrow afternoon. She hasn't mentioned anything about a refund of any kind so far. So I don't know how to proceed. I am just kind of cruising along and letting things run their course. I truly don't believe her to be a dishonest person at all, so I think when push comes to shove she will do the right thing. I think regardless of how his hips recover or don't, I am due some money back. I bought a show quality dog and he is not. I should, at most, have paid a pet dog price. I need to call tomorrow to make an appointment with an ortho specialist. I want a more experienced opinion. I trust my vet is right, but he's a general practitioner. I'd like the word of someone that sees this problem daily.

As far as the patient goes, he has been very compliant. The tramadol helps keep his energy level down just by its nature as a pain killer. But he is doing very well. He controls his tail wags so that he doesn't bang into things. I can tell he is more sore this morning than he has been the last couple of days. We will venture out for a bit of a longer walk today if he can tolerate it. He really is a sweet boy and when push comes to shove, I got a nice family companion regardless. I am trying to hang on to that because it is very upsetting to have done so much research and tried to do the right thing and to have such a disappointing outcome. The thing is, pano and HD are both hereditary but also unpredictable. So this could have happened to anyone. I just was the unlucky one this time.

My DH said we can get another dog whenever we are ready. He has always had a very firm two dog max policy. So I am grateful that he sees that I may want to add another dog to do the sports I had planned with Zeke. I'm not sure what we would do yet. Another wirehaired vizsla is a possibility. Zeke's brother's owner has done a lot of research on breeders and said she could give me input on who she will be choosing for her next pup. We have both felt the international choice is difficult when contracts can't be enforced and cultures differ. I don't know when we would add another dog, but for now it's just nice to know DH would be ok with it.

Thanks for always letting me vent and externally process here! I know I tend to babble sometimes. :p

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:29 pm

In true Zeke fashion, where nothing is straightforward or easy, we hit a road block today. Went in for his bandage change and he acted like his tail was on fire. He seemed to be acting strangely about it yesterday, but I checked the bandage and it wasn't too tight or anything. Dr got the bandage off and the tip is black. Z either banged and bruised it (possible) or he is having trouble with the blood supply. It was rebandaged and we go back Wed am for a recheck. I didn't even want to ask what happens if it's a blood supply issue. I am guessing another surgery to amputate more? I don't know. But he's in a LOT of pain, even now more than two hours after our appointment. I gave him a second Tramadol because he is so uncomfortable. Praying he heals up. He is so sad and pathetic.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby MaisyPancakes » Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:32 pm

Oh, Amanda!! Hoping the black tip is just a bruise (or whatever is least bad), and will be back to normal color by your Wed checkup! Poor you guys. I hope he will be able to sleep OK. Sheesh, Zeke, stop giving us all gray hairs!!

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Calypso » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:49 am

I'm sorry! So not what you wanted, especially after researching the breed so carefully!!! If it's any consolation, a friend of mine found out the puppy she adopted had bilateral HD. He did need surgery, but he'll be 12 this month and he's as active as *her* medical issues let him be. He still does 4 runs every week in flyball, with the vet's blessing, which is about as much as he did when he was 10 and we first taught him!

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Wed Mar 02, 2016 12:04 pm

If you are on Facebook you may have seen, but Zeke went back under today to have another vertebrae removed. He lost blood supply to the tail tip and needed it cut back again to healthy tissue. Dr. B did the surgery for free. He left the skin looser so that there is less compression on the surgery site in case that was the cause. And he changed the dressing for added protection. We go back Friday afternoon for a recheck. Zeke is very uncomfortable and just wants to snuggle with me. I'm so sad for him. I hate seeing him in so much pain. We are supposed to see an ortho vet on Tuesday but I may have to postpone it if he isn't moving more normally through the weekend. Otherwise it's kind of pointless to have a specialist watch him slink around. We need to see him out of tail pain so he can assess the hip issue. So anyway, that is where we are at and hopefully, this is it. His glucosamine supplement came today and I will be adding that to both dogs' diets. Landis is slower to get up and moving these days so he will benefit, too. Ugh. I am throwing up my hands and just admitting defeat. I expect nothing to go well from here on out. Maybe if I expect the bad then things can at least be normal.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby UpwardDog » Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:43 pm

omgoodness :bawl: poor guy and poor you. Could some GOOD luck roll your way now? Sheesh.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby emmas_mom » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:35 pm

I'm so sorry, Amanda. Poor Zeke has been through so much - here's hoping this fixes the tail for good.
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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:45 pm

Had to take him back this afternoon because he was bleeding through the bandage and was slinking around in pain. The vet said he didn't put much in the way of absorbative dressing in the bandage because he wanted it loose fitting so he wasn't worried about the blood. It wasn't soaking through the whole thing and he said the amount we could see was normal. But he was surprised to hear he was so ouchie. So he got a different narcotic injection with a sedating type of drug to make him just be still. He can walk if I coax him up, but he's pretty out of it. He wasn't drinking any water earlier either and that bugged me. But he drank some watered down chicken broth a couple hours ago and he ate a 1/4 sized dinner with his abx and an nsaid. Kid is going to need some serious milk thistle action. I was really glad to see him eager to eat and drink tonight. Freaks me out when my dogs don't eat. He will have some acepromazine in the morning to keep him mellow. And the hope is that this time all will heal well and quickly. He thinks I can keep our Tuesday appointment. He said we should see a different dog by the weekend. Boy, I hope so.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby MaisyPancakes » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:03 pm

Oh shoot. :( I'm sorry, but am glad you were able to get in to see your vet and he thinks it's basically OK. I hear you about not eating—sends me into a total panic!!! Happy to hear he finally ate!

I'm sure there's a good reason for choosing acepromazine, but it is one of those drugs that make reactive/fearful/anxious dog ppl very nervous because it's the one thing we remember to ask vets to not use. If Z has any tendency towards anxiety, I would try to avoid it if there is an alternative that provides sedation (as opposed to just being a chemical restraint).

Keep that tail chill, Z! You can do this!!

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby whiteboxerboy » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:43 am

just a thought in case you don't feel like he's drinking enough, we used a squirt bottle with L's girl Caroline the degenerative myelopathy Boxer. just stick the nozzle in the dog's mouth where the top/bottom lips come together and gently squirt water in. that was the only way she'd drink water unless L's DH held the water bowl for her, even if she was thirsty.

hope he's feeling better and tail is healing!

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby UpwardDog » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:10 am

I second what Nana said about ace. Poor Zeke has had such bad luck, I wouldn't want to risk it. I would rather rely on the sedation and pain relief from the narcotic and be able to assess how he's feeling.
Bone broth has been super useful for me for dogs who are reluctant to drink. It has been more enticing for Sam than chicken or beef broth. Probably because I never have homemade chicken broth. I still swear by slippery elm for icky feeling bellies too.
Feel better Zeke.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby EllaBella » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:30 pm

Poor Zeke! I hope he stays calm and the tail heals well this time.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:43 pm

He is doing loads better. Down to one tramadol at a time, no sedation. He is better though not entirely comfortable yet. Bandage change today. He did an open bandage with a plastic syringe case around the tail but without any cover on the sutures. So it can get airflow but is protected from walls and whatnot. He has a minor ear infection. So just add that to my tab. But we are moving in a positive direction. And hopefully things will continue that way.

In other news, the breeder sent me an article with the note "interesting reading." http://www.louisdonald.com/blog/the-10- ... -dysplasia

Basically it says that all puppies are born with perfect hips (how a completely undeveloped hip joint can be perfect, i don't know) and that there are many environmental factors. And that early intervention is helpful in reversing or lessening damage and lameness. I don't know if it was meant to be encouraging because we caught the HD early(ish) so maybe we can intervene? Or if she's trying to lay groundwork that says I caused his problems by diet or exercise so she doesn't have to refund my money? I did it all the right way. I know all the environmental factors for HD. The only thing I couldn't control was the pano and in that case, it's still not my fault. And it limited his exercise even more for most of his puppyhood and it made me keep him even leaner than I would have otherwise so there's no way I caused this. I guess we'll see. Specialist appt still set for Tuesday.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby connie » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:54 am

I know one breeder whom I trust, and that is Alex's breeder, who left one breed (Samoyeds) and went to another (Finnish Lapphunds) because she was convinced that CHD could never be eradicated in Sammys. She is a genetic researcher at a hospital IRL, and she brings more knowledge to the breeding of dogs than anyone else I have met, although I have met some pretty good breeders in my years in dogs.

In talking about CHD with Alex's breeder, she told me that multiple research studies have shown that the "heretibility" (caused by genes) of HD is only 20%. Plus multiple other research studies have failed to find ANY gene which reliably predicts HD in a dog or its offspring. So, although many breeds, as a whole, have benefited from OFA's program for x-raying breeding stock, because the quality of hips across the breed have improved, no one can "breed out" HD.

This is not the same as saying that 'all dogs are born with perfect hips' and I have seen that website before and my vet has dismissed it. However, are vets actually more knowledgeable about CHD than breeders who have years of experience with breeding dogs? I don't know. What I was told, when my Sundance's CHD was diagnosed on x-rays, was that he was born with one hip socket shallower than the other. The vet would not say why or how that happened. My dogs' chiropractor has strong opinions about the diet of the pregnant bitch.

One school of thought is that CHD is a misnomer and not an actual condition in and of itself -- not to say that it doesn't exist, but more that is the response of a certain organism to various factors, INCLUDING genetic inheritance, diet, environment, and host of others. Not all puppies in a litter will have CHD; why not? As Alex's breeder noted, no one can pin this down to inheritance, or it would have been entirely eradicated by now. She said that she herself would have five generations of 'clear' dogs (when she was in Sammys) and then get a dog with CHD.

So my opinion is that this is such a complex issue that I doubt you will ever determine conclusively how or why Z is affected with this. If that determination is the peg that the breeder is going to hang her response on, then yes, she might well hit the ball back to you and say it's not her responsibility. To me, this is where ethics come in, and a breeder should have a policy covering this stated in the contract. I did go back and look at my contracts and I see that the breeders I have bought from will give a replacement dog at no cost, OR pay a portion of vet bills up to a certain amount, if their puppy is diagnosed with CHD by radiographs that are provided to them. Sundance's breeder still 'owes' me a dog for Sunny. ;)

I also think that the pano is a consideration in this: Z had pano much longer and more severely than most dogs, even those of his breed. That makes me think that there is something in his structure that is not optimal, which to me means the breeder should step up and make some sort of reparations.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Kathleen » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:47 am

That looks like something Brenna's breeder would have sent. She would still honor the contract but I think in her heart of hearts can't believe she would breed a dysplastic dog. These things are her out, not for the money end but the moral end.
I'm no authority on genetics by a long shot, but I have curly hair and no one, I mean no one in my family has curly hair, genes don't always read the text books and do their own thing. I can imagine a breeders frustration when they have done everything right and something like this shows up in their lines. It would be easy to blame the environment I'm sure.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby UpwardDog » Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:45 pm

I'm curious now as to what Zeke's parents and grandparents have for hip scores. I mean yes, we all know dogs with good hips can produce a puppy with CHD and that it will hopefully seem better as he grows, BUT STILL. She should be refunding your money per the contract. If I was in your shoes, I would be really mad if I felt like she was trying to somehow blame me. My breeder friend said in a situation like that she would expect to take that puppy back and be responsible for his care.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Kathleen » Sun Mar 06, 2016 6:38 am

I know at least with the Tervs they don't do a lot of testing in Europe.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:36 pm

Both parents are listed as A (excellent), and I only know the status of one granddam- also A (excellent). His dad has been health tested further after being sold to a breeder in the UK, though not to the extent that breeders here would test (like eyes and elbows, etc). He was tested for HUU and is clear. It's a high urea in urine disease. So we know Zeke is at worst a carrier, but will never be affected. So he's got that going for him.

When I spoke to someone else about HD she said you really need to look at siblings even more than the line of parents/grandparents. If you see consistently good/excellent hips among the aunts and uncles and great aunts and uncles, you will have a better likelihood of having good hips. But hips all over the place are an indicator that these parents and grands, even with good hips themselves, may carry whatever genes are responsible for bad hips.

I don't really think Zeke's lines are bad for hips or that the breeder did anything wrong necessarily. I do believe that his litter was possibly for money more than breed promotion. His mother isn't working or actively showing and I don't think she's had more than the one litter. She lives at someone else's house as a pet. At least 6 and maybe 7 of the 8 puppies born in his litter were exported to the US. Five to show/working homes with breeding rights. One pet here and one pet in Hungary. I don't know about one of the pups. And I'm out of contact with two of the pups here. No health issues with any dogs that I am in contact with- that's four of them. It seemed unusual that the breeder did not keep any puppies from his litter. She kept at least one from all the others that were on the ground when I was there and raised them for at least two-three months and then sold any that weren't growing up to her standards. Some she still has and others she sold as older puppies/young dogs. Her breeding is definitely business for her and she is in the market to breed better dogs, but she breeds on a larger scale than I understood before. Some of that is necessity. It's a small gene pool. She can't be expected to keep all the dogs she grows up and breeds/trains. She needs turnover to keep producing and bring in new dogs to add to the gene pool. But it's a lot of dogs and she only tests hips. Part of why I went to her was to get more of a stocky body and blocky headed dog than what I was seeing elsewhere. Zeke ended up like the dogs I was seeing elsewhere and is not stocky or blocky at all. :/ He looks more like his mom than his dad. But I've learned a lot. Seems it is difficult to predict coats and body type before breeding. Consistency is not as common and so you can get almost smooth looking coats and wooly ones that look like labradoodles even with two parents that are correct in coat. Same with size. Zeke's size isn't unusual in the breed. And it isn't a DQ in Hungary, just a fault. So he could have shown there, but I think we'd have been excused from AKC shows here because he's 2 inches taller than the standard that says that's a DQ. And apparently tall dogs produce small ones and vice versa. Zeke's own sister is I think just barely 40 lbs soaking wet. Her name is Beans. And she's tiny. He's 75 lbs now and we can see ribs and spine. I keep him very lean and will have to continue to do so for life. If I didn't and let him carry enough to cover ribs he'd probably be 85lbs+.

So anyway, we haven't had much correspondence since I am waiting for the specialist appointment. She wished him quick and peaceful healing from his surgery and asked to know about the appt after we go. I don't have complaints yet really about her or how she's handled things except to say that she hasn't responded to my comments about our contract. She may be waiting for the X-rays and dr opinion too. She has said a lot about other dogs having "bad" hips without movement issues until old age. And she's said she hopes he will be fine with exercise and redevelopment of his muscles. It can be taken either as encouragement that his life will be just fine once we get past this, or she is downplaying the issue to avoid paying the refund. I don't know. I guess we'll find out after the appt and I send her all the info.

I'm a little nervous about the appt because Zeke is still not walking normally. His tail is sore and he hits the walls then jumps because he doesn't understand what keeps biting him when he walks around. So it makes him slink around and hold his back end strangely. Maybe outside and in a new place he'll be ok. And hopefully the vet won't need to see too much active movement from him and he can just assess the X-rays and maybe palpate the joints themselves to figure things out. Two more sleeps. I can barely wait to find out the expert opinion.

And as you can see from this novel, I have been analyzing things to the nth degree. Maybe I need some ace to knock me out. :lol:

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Calypso » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:42 pm

I have a friend who's story isn't terribly different from your own, only she had a GSD. He had awful pano and severe elbow displasia resulting in two surgeries. She wanted an agility dog and she got a lame dog who missed so much of the critical socialization period that he was completely oblivious to how to be around other dogs. Even Havana couldn't deal with him and she's usually quite versatile.

Anyway, the breeder blamed F for the dog's problems. Said the same thing about slippery floors, too much agility too soon, wrong food, etc. A coworker had his littermate and had none of the issues, but the dogs were basically raised together except when he had to be on crate rest for pano. There is no way F did anything wrong. She, like you, did more research and has more knowledge than the average dog owner. I don't remember if the breeder ever compensated her the way she was supposed to.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:14 am

Emailed the breeder tonight with an update and request for our refund. We'll see what she says. I don't have time or energy to rewrite so I will copy and paste the pertinent parts of my email to her so you can see what the vet said today. It was mixed news, but I was braced for the worst, so I'll take it.



The vet today had some good news and bad news. He does not recommend surgery for Zeke or really any young dogs anymore. They haven't done the TPO surgery in his office for more than 10 years because it wasn't worth the risk for the dogs they used to do it on. Now they have good hip replacements available so they don't need TPO as an insurance plan. He palpated both hips with Zeke awake and was able to subluxate the right hip easily, but the left hip stayed in the socket. My regular vet said both hips come out when he is under anesthesia.


The specialist said that if we were to submit Zeke's xrays to OFA, the best we could hope to receive would be a score of "Fair." He has remodelling of the femoral neck on the right. Contrary to my regular vet, Dr. Cambridge does not see flattening of the femur head. He said that the flat area we are seeing in the xray is the normal flat part of the femur and not to worry about that. He does not see any changes to the socket part of the hip either. He said that he thinks that Zeke has adequate coverage of the socket over the femur and that will work to his advantage in overcoming the laxity he has that allows the joint to come apart. He believes that with proper rehab and exercise, good muscle tone will help bring the hip socket together so that it is tight and not slipping around like it is currently. It could then be like the left hip that only can come out if he's under sedation.

He highly recommended Adequan injections and glucosamine supplementation. He also recommended a course of anti-inflammatories so that he uses the leg fully and gets that muscle tone back. He said we must keep him very lean for life, and for now, he cannot do any twisting or turning movements. He said he can walk and run on leash, but not off leash yet. And when his tail is healed, swimming is ideal. He would like to see him again in 4-6 weeks to see how things have changed. He wasn't able to see the lameness as clearly today as he would have liked because Zeke's tail causes him to tuck it under him when he moves right now. But he did see it while he walks. So once the tail heals he wants to see him walk again to see what it really looks like. I may also video his movement at home and just email it to him.

So, in the long term, it is possible that Zeke's hips will not cause him constant lameness. Whether he can do sports or not is unknown. We go back to my regular vet tomorrow for a check on his tail. After two weeks of not bothering the stitches at all, he managed to manipulate his way around the plastic cone last night and chewed off his bandages and broke one of the stitches. He was bleeding again today, so we still have healing to do with the silly tail. Can't wait for it to all get back to normal.

And I went through all of my posts here to gather a timeline of his lamenesses. Not counting the possible ACL injury he had at 11 weeks old, here's what has gone on with him in the last year. :(

4/29/15 Front right leg, one week, pano

5/14/15 Front right leg, ten days, pano

6/2/15 Front left leg, 18 days, pano

8/18/15 Hind left leg, 21 days, pano

9/9/15 Hind right leg, 30 days, pano

10/17/15 Front right leg, 11 days, pano (confirmed by x-ray at this point, pano in both front legs, more right than left)

11/5/15 Front left leg, 14 days, pano

12/10/15 Hind right leg, 5 weeks, pano suspected, but could be dysplasia as well.

1/27/16 Hind right leg, slight favoring, still favors this leg, dysplasia diagnosed

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby UpwardDog » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:54 am

My heart just breaks for him having to deal with so much pain in his short life, and for your wallet, and not getting the dog that you went out of your way to try to acquire. I really hope this improves markedly as he grows.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:14 am

She doesn't want to refund any of my money. Apparently "fair" hips are breeding quality (yeah, right) and anyway, I primarily wanted a family companion so the fact that I requested a show quality dog doesn't seem to matter. I am more sad than angry. I wanted this experience to be wonderful and thought that even though Zeke hasn't turned out, at least I had a good trip to Hungary and met some nice people. It has dissolved into an ugly mess. I replied to her and maybe it will change her mind, but maybe not. I just hope we can get Zeke back on track to at least be that family companion that can hike and play without going lame every couple of weeks.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby SherriA » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:20 pm

Oh Amanda, I'm so frustrated for you! Money can't make up for all that you and Zeke have gone through, but at least it helps defray the significant medical bills you've racked up. I hope she changes her mind.
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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:14 pm

We went back a forth a bit today. I doubt she will change her mind. I sent one last email tonight and am going to leave it at that. If anything bad happens to Zeke's brother though, his owner will not be as gracious. I tried to reiterate that I don't blame her for what has happened with Zeke, but I did expect her to stand behind her puppies and support her buyer. When that strange anomaly pops up, you just help out and make it right. And it's good business. After what I've been through with no help from her, what person would go back to her for another dog? I said I wouldn't be able to go back to her after this and she basically said she was sorry I felt that way. Not sure who wouldn't feel that way, but whatever.

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby maxs_mommy » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:55 pm

After all of this with his breeder, is there a breed club you can at least lodge an objection with so someone doesn't end up in the same mess? Good grief, all you've been through and now your breeder won't stand behind you? It's crap.
Max "the ninja"-American Cocker Spaniel G-day 3/2009
Charlie "the middle child"- Orange Tabby G-day 7/2005
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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Jen » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:55 pm

After all of this with his breeder, is there a breed club you can at least lodge an objection with so someone doesn't end up in the same mess? Good grief, all you've been through and now your breeder won't stand behind you? It's crap.
I'm glad you saved me having to type up my thoughts, maxs_mommy.

So frustrating, Amanda!! I'm so sorry for you. :mad:

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby UpwardDog » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:09 pm

:thumbdown: :cussing: Is she saying no, or that she wants to wait til he's 2 and has a more official diagnosis?

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby Amanda » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:44 pm

She's saying that his hips aren't bad enough. He has nothing "official" as far as rating, but she never said I had to do that. The contract says two vet opinions. It does say on questionable preliminary xrays that buyer agrees to re-xray in six months, but she hasn't asked me to do that either. Jodi said I should wait til two and submit OFA. Maybe I will do that, I don't know. But unless he scores less than "Fair" she feels that his hips are good enough. Breedable even. I don't agree. Fair hips in an otherwise perfect dog? Maybe with the right mate, but in a dog with *lameness* and arthritic changes at 15 months? No way.

My other complaint is his height. He is 27 inches. AKC max height is 25, DQ at 26. UKC max height is 25 1/4", DQ at 26. FCI max height is 64cm (25.2 inches), eliminating fault height is 66cm (25.98 inches) The contract specifically states that in a show potential puppy, if they develop "any disqualifying faults as defined in the breed standard" that my refund option or replacement option exists. Zeke is over DQ height by a full inch. She says because I never showed him that I don't know he would have been DQ'd, but why would I waste the money showing only to be DQ'd? Two DQ's and you can't enter any shows again. I would have spent the money I am requesting back proving I was due the money. Kind of counterproductive. His coat doesn't match the standard either, but he has some more time for that to develop. It doesn't look like it will, but who knows?

The reality is that if he never had pano and the hip issues, I wouldn't care about the height and coat in terms of getting a refund. That seems trivial to me. It's disappointing because I didn't want a large breed dog and I had no idea that it wasn't unusual to have an HWV grow to this height. Apparently many top winners in work in Hungary are this large and the breeder breeds to them for their working talent. I can understand that, but Zeke isn't a phenomenal working dog and he has had so many issues in his life I have no idea why anyone would consider him a show or breeding prospect still. Only she does because it means she doesn't have to send me any money. At the beginning I did tell her very explicitly that I was concerned about not getting a show quality dog just because I wasn't a high profile show home. She said she doesn't do that and only sells show quality puppies to people that ask that. She charges less for pet quality pups. She says she expected him to be show quality at 8 weeks and his looks then were similar to the dog that now has the most wins in N. America (Zoldmali Cetli). But because I said his job would primarily be a family companion she is claiming I bought a pet. But I did not and I paid full price. I even have the export pedigree that you don't give to a dog that is only a pet. It's all a mess and I'm super bummed about it. I could be really angry, but I'm not. Just truly disappointed...

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Re: Advice please... Tail and neuter issues

Postby emmas_mom » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:37 am

Sounds like at the very least she should refund you the difference between the cost of a show quality pup and the cost of a pet quality pup. I'm so sorry you and Zeke have been going through this.
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