ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

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JudyL
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:32 pm

She made no noises at all, her eyes were open, and her body might have been slightly stiff. The leg movements were very subtle, just slightly quivering. There was nothing overly dramatic...except you know, for me that it was actually happening at all. When she rolled back onto her chest, she seemed fine, was not distressed in the least, and stayed like that while a petted her a few times over the next 15 sec or so. Her body was relaxed and she didn't seem worried. No poop at that point. I think the poo happened when I hit that sweet spot that feels so good for dogs to have scratched that's right in front of the hips, and that's when her tail came up a little and a tiny turd about 3/4" long popped out. She did that while she was lying down. I think she really had to "go" and that was the reason for the excitement to begin with.

She's a crazy wild thing when she wants food or when she's excited like she was this morning. She scoots when she's excited and has done that since she was a pup. She can actually do figure 8s on her butt, so I wasn't paying too much attention when she did that pirouette except that it was different and smaller than the butt circles that she sometimes does. I was trying to ignore her excitement so she didn't go into zoomies and have a possible crash into the furniture due to her poor eyesight. BTW, she's never crashed into anything yet. It's also not unusual for her to rub both sides of her face with her butt up in the air like she started to do, and that's when the flopping started.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Mon Jan 05, 2015 2:15 pm

The initial flopping didn't concern me too much either. When she rubs her face, it isn't unusual for her to flop down and rub her sides or roll over on her back to rub and scratch, and she makes some noises like it feels good, like she does when I scratch her. You know, like having a good roll around in the grass. Normal stuff. I wasn't too concerned until she flopped and then stayed on her side with the quivering legs. THAT was different.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby Jen » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:30 pm

:frown: That's so distressing!! So scary to watch, but I'm kind of glad you got to see it so at least you can talk to the vet knowledgably. All crossables crossed for ChiChi (who always reminds me of the advertisement "Monchichi monchichi, oh so soft and cuddly." )

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby maxs_mommy » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:28 pm

Good grief! I'm glad you go in on Wednesday. All crossables crossed for ChiChi.
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby UpwardDog » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:37 pm

Very Puzzling. I'm glad whatever it is is very brief. Is she tired afterwards? I hope there is NBD news on Wednesday.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:59 pm

Heather, she might be a little more tired than other times. It's really hard to say since she sleeps much of the time between meals and potty breaks anyway. She was interested in dinner and ate well but wasn't as noisy.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby Yankee » Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:18 pm

I'm hoping that she feels fine now, and that all goes well on Wednesday.

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Re: ChiChi's vet check, thinking syncope not seizure

Postby JudyL » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:52 am

The vet thought she looked good overall, heart and lungs sound good, still has good muscle tone. She has a slight heart murmur that hasn't changed or gotten any worse. She's a pretty relaxed dog at the vet, and vet said she was pleased to hear the heart rhythm adjust/change as Chi's breathing increased or slowed because many dogs' hearts are racing during their checkups and vets can't hear if the rhythm will change compared to the breathing. Her breathing has been congested all of her life and she has post nasal drip. She does now have mouth ulcers on each side of her upper lips that line up with her upper incisors, but vet thought the minimal tarter on her teeth wasn't the cause of the ulcers. She sent me home with sucralfate to squirt around in her mouth to heal those up, not necessarily to swallow, but because those are more likely being caused by urinea (sp?) then Chi might also have ulceration further down in her esophagus or stomach too, so swallowing would be a good thing. After those are healed I'm to start her on Pepcid AC and use a dental rinse with chlorhexidine in it.

The full lab report is being mail to me and I don't have that yet. The things mentioned in vet's phone message that have changed are:

phosphatase (same as ALP?) showed a very slight increase
BUN - was 46 last check, now at 57
creatinine - was 2.1, now 2.4
calcium - now 12.3
platelets and WBC showed slight increase, not too worried about that

Vet spoke with an internist who concurred that urinea is most likely causing the ulcers in her mouth. They both are leaning toward the episodes being syncope rather than seizure, and even if seizure, probably not caused by kidney values as those aren't high enough. Whatever the episodes were, they weren't long enough of duration of frequency to do anything about as far as treatment or even pursuing its cause. Just watch her and keep taking good care of her.

Looks like it's time for a rework on her diet.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:06 pm

I have a problem that I tend to think of zebras instead of horses. Mouth ulcers make me think of bartonella or a need for additional zinc. I remember thinking of Bart before wih Chi, but then seemed not.

I do know that kidney issues create a lot of acidity and GERD type stuff. When you get the bloodwork copy, would be curious if Co2 or anion gap is measured and if either are near the edges of the normal range.

Wonder if a gut with h. pylori can cause mouth ulcers? Wouldn't have thought that, but been trolling the IBD forums too long. But she doesn't seem to have digestive issues, but I don't think it rules it out - my dad is positive for that stuff, with little to no digestive issues.

If one of these episodes happens again (hopefully it doesn'!), I wonder if the color of the gums would tell you anything. To me, I think pale gums=heart, but maybe they would also be pale with syncope? No clue!
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:09 pm

Oh, what type of doxy are you using right now? There is the hyclate, and the other stuff? One is much more acidic than the other and increases the risk of ulcers in the esophagus???? I added an extra baking soda treatment each day when I started jazz on doxy, and she's on the less acidic version for now.
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:32 pm

Yes, doxy as hyclate. I think that's what she's always been on and she's never had mouth ulcers before this. I think they are pretty common in dogs in renal failure. I didn't know there were different types of doxy. What are the others, and do you know if those are available to be compounded? I know what you mean about horses and mouth ulcers. One of mine had that occur from being given bute.

I don't even know what anion gap is, and have never seen that or Co2 on any previous labs.

The only GI upset was back in July when she and Dixie were both ill. I never did figure that out, but I threw out that entire batch of food and started over after I tried to give Cinnabon a little bit and she also vomited after eating it.

I realized later that day I should have looked at Chi's tongue and gums during "the episode" but being stunned at seeing it happening, I didn't think of it at the time. Hindsight, it's perfect.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:12 pm

The hyclate from what I can tell, is more acidic than the monohydrate. The hyclate in capsules is more dangerous because the capsule can get stuck and expose the esophagus to the doxy itself. I am using the hyclate tablets, she did not do so well on the capsules. I don't know if liquid carries the ame risk? I'm guessing you give it before a meal?

I know when folks on the tick list used to price them at walgreen's on the pharmacy plan, one type was way more expensive than the other type, so that might make a difference when compounding. Weird about the bute!

The Co2 (or bicarbonate) and anion gap aren't on a lot of panels, and it also depends on the lab. It can be a measurement of acidity in the body, and if you have a higher (I think that's right) value, then baking soda therapy helps that too.

Hindsight, I hear you! I am great at thinking of things *after* too.
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:33 pm

Re the bute and horses, it's a common effect of bute. :(

Chi used to willingly take the doxy without being hidden in anything because it is flavored. With the digestive upset last summer, that was usually part of what she vomited back up, but not the cause of it apparently. Ever since then I've had to hide it in other food that she then swallows whole, usually just enough canned dog food to stick to it and hide it or the same idea with cream cheese. I also give it while she's eating during the middle of the meal to make sure there's food afterward to make sure the pill goes all the way down and is never the first or last thing she eats.

The doxy I get is a quad-scored pressed tablet that breaks apart easily by hand. The commercial pills I used to give had to be cut with a pill cutter that was difficult because of the hard shell coating, and those dulled the cutter pretty quickly too. Since I was cutting them open, that coating didn't do any good either. I've never had capsules for her, probably because I wouldn't be able to scale them down to her dosage.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:06 pm

Hmmm, the doxy I less likely then, unless the doxy together with the kidney issues just make each a little bit worse as a cumulative effect.

I don't think she's getting a digestive enzyme powder? Mouth ulcers are a common side effect of that.
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:17 pm

Yes, I suppose a cumulative effect is possible. She doesn't get digestive enzymes. Other than the supplements to balance her food, she's been getting only the doxy, Dasuquin, and the occassional sprinkle of NOW 4x6 acidophilus probiotic. Now I'll be adding the sucralfate and then switching at some future point to Pepcid.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby whiteboxerboy » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:08 pm

Well I'm relieved to hear the vet didn't think not was necessarily a seizure. That's a huge relief.

Bummer about the mouth ulcers, hopefully they'll clear up quickly.

Scritches for the feisty little girl!

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby UpwardDog » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:50 am

How strange about the mouth ulcers. Pour wee girlie. I hope whatever is causing them is resolved quickly.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:33 am

She's not on thyroid meds, is she?
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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby JudyL » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:36 am

No, thyroid is good, no meds for that.

Other than the supplements to balance her diet, the only things ChiChi gets are what I listed earlier: Doxy, Dasuquin, probiotic, and now the Sucralfate.

Also two eye meds: cyclosporin and ketorolac.

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Re: ChiChi had a seizure this morning, or something

Postby LisaT_II » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:40 am

I was kinda hoping that we missed the thyroid, and she was maybe a bit hyper, causing heart irregularity. I think hypo migth do the same, but I think it would have to be *really* low?
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