Bad Cesar

It's a news cast presenting the other side of the CM juggernaut. They do a lot of buttlicking, though and it seems obvious they don't want to offend him, but still, at least it's something.

And my God, those clips were horrifying. That poor Akita.

Seriously. I'm sorry, that's abusive. No way around it, 'choking off' a dog is abuse.

Just shows how much of a cruel person he is...shock collars he uses a lot...that dog you saw on the video is the one show I watched and that dog was actually a partially wild dog those people took in and you saw the mildest part of it..the worst being when the dog was laying listless with it's tongue hanging out and him touching it and the dog trying to respond in fear, but so weak from what he did to him, unable to.....there are no words I can put in this post to describe the anger I feel toward Cesar Milan when I see stuff like that and at the people in this country who fall for his ways because he's on tv and is a Hollywood person...I think it shows how gullable people can be.

ack I don't think I can watch. I hate seeing sad, scared animals.

Nice to see alternative viewpoints making their way into the media Both clips were pretty disturbing

OMG, those clips were horrible. I was literally shaking watching them. I'm glad other viewpoints were highlighted, but I sure hope this media attention doesn't bring Cesar to even more people's attention. You know the saying....any publicity is good publicity.

I am not going to watch the clips.

A couple of weeks ago I saw CM's TV show for the first time. I had read his book, but never seen him in action -- until I happened on the show. I watched for about 5 minutes and I was appalled. He had some dog on a VERY short, tight leash and he was telling its owners that he had it under control now. The owners were gushing about how wonderful he was, and the dog looked like he was wondering how he could get the hell out of the whole situation.

Cesar Millan clearly has some "issues" and he's using animals to express his own misbegotten ways of dealing with those "issues." IMO he could benefit from some therapy. And he shouldn't be allowed around animals.

I saw the show that clip was from (it came on a few years ago). That dog is actually a jindo dog. He totally dominated that dog and did the alpha roll and everything. It was EXTREMELY dangerous (and the dog was freaked out of his mind) and Cesar even got bitten because of it.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/jindo.htm

And I completely agree about Millan. I used to watch every episode (a few years ago) until I came to realize how dangerous his methods are. I watch some of the episodes now and my jaw just drops every time, even when I watch episodes I've seen before. He does have a point about exercise and being consistent, though. That's about it.

I have people say all the time that I must watch the Dog Whisperer all the time and I explain, as nicely as possible, that I really don't. I say that I've learned methods for training that anyone can do that don't have the huge risk of being bitten. I also mention how much I admire Victoria Stillwell. My FIL told me during his visit that he thinks VS is a hack - that no one can get those kind of results that quickly. This confuses me because doesn't CM solve all the owner's problems in 30 minutes? And they don't necessarily show the multiple days of training that they do with VS.

FIL doesn't believe that someone can walk into a house and have the dogs not be as obnoxious to them as they are to the owners. I told him that my boss is one of those people - she doesn't have to lay a hand on the dog, but her body language gets through. Not to mention dogs take advantage when they know what buttons to push.

But, then again I'm a bleeding heart liberal who's head is as soft as my heart. Granted, my dogs are fairly well behaved and I get paid to teach classes with good post-class reviews, but seriously, what do I know?

I had a neighbor, a woman in her 60s, tell me in all seriousness that she cannot imagine that a dog can be successfully trained without physical corrections. This woman is not a hard-ass type; she is a gardener, she has several cats that she rescued, and she and her husband had a lovely sweet dog for many years until it died in old age. I think it's just the generation that she is, and maybe that's true for your FIL also: they really think that a certain amount of that behavior is necessary for training!

I LOVE her!!! I watch her show every week

I got turned off Cesar Milan finally when i watched one of his episodes on "mute". I had seen this one a bunch of times before, the dog was a corgi/papillon mix or something and the people couldn't give the dog its medicine. The dog was aggressive to the people and they afraid of it. And Cesar grabbed the dog, pinned him to the floor and started force-massaging him. And he'd be saying 'look at how much he's enjoying it, blah blah blah he can associate his medicine with this nice massage'. Meanwhile the dog had the most terrified 'wtf??' look on his face. and he must have been force-massaging the dog for an hour because eventually they showed that the dog gave up and looked like he was making believe that it wasn't happening, sort of a "I can't be bothered anymore, wake me up when he's gone" expression. And of course Cesar is like "look he finally understood that this massage is nice!" And I'd be watching the episode sort of shrugging and figuring "if you say so."

And then i watched the same episode on mute, just watching body language without his fluff about how the dog is thinking this or that while he's forcing it into whatever. Its amazingly different, how the show looks, when you can tell what's happening only by the body language and what you see.

that was a little rambly, sorry

CM sucks.

I dislike him as a person (his whole attitude just bugs me) and I hate his way of dealing with dogs.

My feelings EXACTLY. May I quote you?

Tatyana, that is really interesting about watching the episode on mute. The power of suggestion is amazing really. I would bet that most people watching a video like that on mute would think he was trying to kill the dog.

I love how he says that his way isn't the only way... it's just a way. Sure it's not the only way, but that's everybody's point! His way isn't the right or kind way.

I've only seen a couple episodes and seen his appearance on Oprah. I thought he came across very likeable. My issue is with the method not the man. I'm sure he believes in his methods. What I can't beleive is why people think it's so new or revolutionary. It's just old school dominance theory, correction stuff by a trainer who knows how to suck people in. How does this get it's own show and ridiculous publicity and the real big name amazing, educated people accomplishing incredible stuff are never seen be the general public?

Back in the 80's, there was a trainer who was the trainer for the times, Matthew Margolis

http://www.unclematty.com/woofpub/mum.htm and he was the face of dog training for years (in CA anyway).

Around 10 years ago, I read an article on CM in the Style section of the LA Times - an awesome man who tooked huge numbers of big dogs hiking in Rustic Canyon. So far, he was an unknown. If Will Smith and his wife had not met him and promoted him to the world, he might not have seen success so quickly. He was training their Rotties and they were very happy with the outcome.

Fast foward to now. Here is what happens when way too much publicity and a hungry public are looking for a quick fix for training their dog.

What scares me the most is that he truly believes he is helping these dogs become the pet that the family is hoping for.

I saw him in 1996 at a seminar, right after Katrina. I came to see him because Carnie was a baby and I was searching for some reasonable methods to train him. After seeing all of shows, including that horrifying one with the Jindo, I was convinced that CM was not the one and would end up being dangerous to others.

I hope the public sees him for what he is a looks for more reliable resources.

Bari, did you mean 2006?

Yes, 2006. Slip of the key

Bari, I remember Uncle Matty very well...he was on the Animal Planet channel all the time....

http://www.unclematty.com/training/allabout.php

I loved the way he would talk with that high pitched voice to the dogs to make them happy.

The worst thing is CM seems to have an almost cult like following that totally creeps me out.

It also seems that many dog groomers are huge fans of Caesar you read some of the forums and they almost seem to worship him. They seem to think he is some sort of dog god.

My Sister has a fantastic way with dogs only because she uses common sense and positive techniques. Dogs trust her and she is also confident so dogs do not feel any unsureness from her. This doesn't make her a dog god, it makes her good at her career of dog grooming.

Same thing with my Rottweiler Athena, everyone here knows the horrible time I went through with her. When I first rescued her I bought into that whole dominance, pack theory training andit only suppressed and then made her offensive and unpredictable which is worse. Also with Athena she is highly dog aggressive but if I took her to a friends house who owns more than 3 dogs she is not stupid enough to start anything. That is flooding at it's finest and Ceasar seems to use it quite a bit. Flooding does not retrain a dog it just has the dogs instinct kick in that if I start anything around these 50 dogs I don't think I stand a chance. That is an easy way to look like a super star with novice owners.

Which brings up another issue, I heard that he keeps a "pack" of about 50 dogs together. I think about how stressful that must be for those poor dogs.

Another thing, dogs will be better with a stranger than their owner because they have no bond. My Sister explained to me that she gets it all the time, other peoples dogs are good for her because they have no bond. Owners are so impressed but it's really just normal in most cases especially if the dog is turned over to a knowledgable dog person who is confident. I've seen show handlers take show dogs sold to pet homes that are so spoiled and have them ready for the ring in 20 minutes and walking perfectly.

Any of the good ideas Caesar has ever had have been around a long time. Much longer than Caesar. When I was a child my mother always used to say a tired dog is a good dog.

One thing that I do find funny is some of our clients are big Caesar fans. One went to see him in CA and just gushes over him and compares every single dog behavior with something Caesar has said. One of the Newf's pawed her (common Newf thing) and she started explaining that this was a sign of dominance...it was Tori!!! Yup, OK I guess Newf's are a very dominant breed...hmmm

I'm glad we are all on the same page of disliking Caesar I think he is truly the worst thing that every happened to dog training. And that, don't try this at home...drama!!!

Another thing to is we have learned so much about dogs and now know that dogs are scavengers and have lived among humans for many many thousands of years. Dogs are not wolves. It's interesting when you read the book "dogs" by raymond coppinger when he talks of the dogs at the dumps in mexico and the dogs in pemba. That book IMO is a must read. Some people may not agree with everything but there are some good points to be taken. I got that book by mistake many years ago and never read it until one day I was bored. It gave me some pretty good insight I never had before.

Sounds like my shop. My boss worships him.

I usually don't ask owners what their dogs are like when i groom. It doesn't matter how the dog acts around them, it will be different for me. In fact there is usually a perfect inverse relationship between how the owner tells me the dog will act and how it actualy does. "he's an angel" usually means "watch carefully!" And vice versa. I recently groomed a chinese crested whose owner was convincecd that the dog was a psycho and how no one could touch him, and that he was ultra dog-aggressive, etc etc etc. I did not need a muzzle for a single moment of the groom and he wanted to play with my dogs the whole time. When we told the owner she was almost disappointed to hear that he was nothing how she expects him to be (even though he was excellent the whole time, and knowing some other CCs, i did not expect him to be so nice either).

When I'm working at the vet clinic, its a little different since the owner is right there and the dog knows it. how i handle the dog changes as well.

Heh I've been reading The Other End of the Leash lately. Fascinating stuff. Cesar should look into it

Just to add, I wish I could watch the video dial up sucks.

Angel sorry for taking the part you quoted out of my post. I reread my post and man do I get gabby and go on and on!!! I had to remove some things

I saw this video last week through a link from a Yahoo group - the person who posted it said that the news station was receiving hate mail from Millan's fans ("the cult" - that's how i describe them too! it's scary.)
I'd encourage everyone to write to this station (their contact info is on the very bottom of their website in tiny letters) and tell them that you appreciate the view point of this story! It may not be perfect, but it's better than most of what's out there.
Maybe one day this revisiting of Kohler will be exposed for what it really is... (a note aside, there's even a training school around here that uses throw chains!!)

yes, me again...

If anyone is interested in reading more on this topic, take a look at this site:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

there's an article on that page, and there are links down the left hand side that link to similar articles.

I think I'll have my dogs write Millan a letter explaining how they have better things to do with their time that plot to achieve dominance ("to take over the world! muuuahahaha!"). For instance, Arlo is concentrating very hard on flexing his toes and falling asleep, and Odin is concentrating on finding something to be reactive about (he's not trying too hard right now, but should the opportunity present itself... I don't even want to know what sorts of stories Millan would make up about Odin!!)

Good website, thanks!

Here's one I like, on the same topic: Lee Charles Kelley is a mystery writer who also studies dog training. His website addresses the myth of pack leader, the myth of alpha, and the destructive silliness of that kind of thinking:

http://www.leecharleskelley.com/thetop10myths/mythofthepackleader.html

Great articles.

One question I do have, why hasn't Ceasar been charged with animal cruelity.

Connie -

thanks for that link! I'm part way through the article now, and it really lays out the origins of the dominance paradigm very well.
I'm going to keep reading...

I like Kelley. I also like his murder mysteries, which have lots of dogs and dog-training in them.

Kelley is a fan, and a friend, of Kevin Behan, the trainer who wrote the book Natural Dog Training about ten years ago, before positive/clicker training had really taken hold in the US. Behan's premise is that everything a dog does is based in the dog's prey drive, and the dog can switch from 'hunting' to 'social' mode; that a dog learns best when its drive is being channeled so that the dog is being rewarded by that. I like Behan's book a lot. I found it to be a welcome blast of common sense at a time when the Monks of New Skete were writing crap, and other trainers were insisting that "your dog wants to please you!" -- as if a dog could grasp the concept of "pleasing" us. (It would please me a lot if my dogs would CLOSE the back door after they come in, and surely that's not too much to ask, since they can open it with no problem; but pleasing me must not be high on their agendas, because every single one leaves the door wide open.)

Dogs want their drives and their relationships to be harmonious, and the person who can facilitate that for the dog will establish a positive and productive relationship with the dog!



Behan's website: http://www.naturaldogtraining.com

Because his methods aren't perceived as cruel, they're perceived as "leadership" by way too many people.

Read the book Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn: it talks about how the dominance paradigm is one of the first and strongest myths that human beings absorb. We are to be "dominant" over nature and animals, and in some cases, over other human beings (nations or cultures). This bizarre way of viewing the world and the universe has landed us where we are now, but it's still a widely-held belief, and so deeply rooted that people may not even be conscious of it. Pretty scary ...