Don't know if you guys recall, but Bodie had Lyme disease when I first fostered him. We treated with doxycycline and he recovered nicely, but of course, it can recur. Well, his titers were up on his HW/Lyme/Erlichia panel yesterday. I've also thought he has seemed more lethargic and kinda pouty lately--it's the middle of the summer and Bodie is a napaholic anyway, so it's tough to know for sure, but I had mentioned it to Doug a couple of times before we had the tests run. I know that since he has the history, his titers may always show at least a slight positive, but since he's seemed not quite himself lately, I'm inclined to go ahead with the doxycycline treatment just to be on the safe side. Poor little guy!

Poor Bodie the beaglicous! I'd probably go with more docycycline too, even though I don't know too much about lyme, aside from its ability to be nasty and chronic. I hope he feels a little less nappy soon!

The only way for you to know if it's an active Lyme infection or not is to run a C6 test. The SNAP test that you did just shows the presence of antibodies to a certain level - it's not a titer. If you want to know if he's got an active tick disease you need to do more than the SNAP test. I know you didn't actually ask a question or anything in your post, but I want to make sure you know the difference.

Thanks, I was just reading about the C6 test. When I talked to the tech, she thought it would be best to go ahead and treat since he does seem to be symptomatic, and then perform the C6 test after treatment to establish a baseline value for him.

Poor Bodie! I hope the little dude makes a speedy recovery. Nutmeg is sending all her beagle vibes to him!

Poor Bodie! I hope a round of doxy has him more his usual self. I'm quickly learning that napping is serious business for beagles but you can only train for the nap Olympics so many hours of the day.

Feel better Bodie!

I don't know much about lyme, but if he needs to be treated again does it mean he's been infected again, or is this just something that will always come and go and need to be treated periodically?

Actually, you want to do the C6, then treat, then another C6 to see how effective the treatment was. A C6 after treatment doesn't tell you how successful the treatment was because you don't know what the number was to begin with. Make sense? Successful treatment should reduce the antibody level by at least 50% after 6 months. So, for a dog with a level of 100 you'd want the level to go down to at least 50 when you test a 2nd time. No first test, you don't know how effective treatment was.

I'm not saying don't treat without the C6. I'd definitely treat. However, if you want to know how successful treatment was you need to do C6 now and later and compare the results.

If can mean either. Unless you do the antibody tests before and after treatment you can't really tell if treatment was successful or not. And even if treatment is deemed successful, they really don't know if it's chronic or not.

Have you thought about Colloidal Silver? There are studies of it clearing Lyme in humans. You can get a totally nontoxic one now, it is patented.

Yep, agree.

The C6 gives you a before and after benchmark. That SNAP test might always be positive.

And no matter what the tests say, if you are seeing symptoms, I would treat.

Do you have any good links to the info on the CS and Lymes? Thanks.

Poor Bodie!! I hope he feels better soon! I know nothing about lyme, but I just want to wish him well. I do know a little about doxy and that stuff is pretty harsh sometimes.

We are having the titer sent off tomorrow. Turns out the vet didn't realize that Bodie had a history of Lyme (my regular vet is out of town, Doug took him for the visit and didn't realize they were doing a Lyme test as part of the HW panel, plus his original test was done at another facility when I was fostering him) He's actually perked up quite a bit in the last 48 hours, and he's acting more like his normal self, so I'm holding off the treatment until we get the titer results. Thanks for the good wishes and advice.

I did not know about the colloidal silver...I will definitely keep that in mind!

http://banditsbuddies.blogspot.com/search?q=colloidal+silver

http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/lyme-disease/

Robin, would that be something I could put Bodie on long term as a preventative or is it only therapeutic?

His titer results indicated that he did have an active infection, so we went ahead with the doxycycline since I didn't have immediate access to the silver. He has tolerated it very well; I've been giving him probiotics at least every other morning to prevent tummy upset. He is 4 days away from finishing the bottle, and he's acting like a different dog now; I think this came on so gradually that I didn't realize just how bad he was feeling and how sore he must have been. His energy level is way up, he doesn't growl and grumble if you happen to nudge him hard enough to move him, and he has been giving us some great beagle howling concerts at least once a day! He's doing alot of prancing and dancing too--he runs to greet me with big tail wags and snuggles when I get home from work, and he's getting the zoomies much more often. Just today, when I was replaying Yintzy's video of Whisper, her bark on my laptop was enough to send Bodie into a full on prance around the living room searching for the intruder, then over to the end table where he put his front paws up, threw back his head, and gave me a few good 5-7 second howls!

I've definitely learned a lesson here; I'm just going to have to keep a close eye on him for symptoms, and get him titered once a year. We're going back after he finishes the doxy to get a baseline titer established. Poor little guy! I'm just thankful that he didn't get any kidney issues with this.

Wow, I'm glad this made such a big difference for him. Gotta love beagle concerts!

Found this interesting article on Lyme and doxy:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319193029.htm

I can't seem to find any links to studies on CS for Lyme in dogs...just anecdotal stuff and advertising websites. The only mention of a study was for a test tube application of CS to spirochetes. There was also something on quackwatch.com and a few other sites that cautioned against CS. Does anyone have some more specific study links that I can show my vet?

Did you join the Tick-L list and ask there? I seem to remember CS coming up on there at some point.

Also, you know that it takes 6 months for the antibody levels to come down as far as they're going to post-treatment, so any antibody tests that you do before then don't really tell you whether the numbers are up, down or staying the same. So, it's not really a baseline at all.

ETA: I see that you already did 1 antibody test, so another one 6 months after treatment is going to tell you how successful treatment was.

Only studies I know I have seen are in humans.

I put Gina on Silver Shield daily for her rotten stinky infected mouth....now she rarely has an odor...she is getting her dental done on Thursday now that we know labs are good and her gums are not so infected. I give KaeJae and my cat a small amount, maybe like an 1/8 tsp, about 3-4 times a week and I take it as well.

Hey Amyzon--how long and at what dose did you treat Bodie? He should be on doxy for at least 8 weeks and I remember talking to you about this last year and I think you said he was only treated for a month. With Lyme, treatment should last for 8 weeks and should pretty much be double what is normally given. Riley, weighing about 45 lbs, was on 400mg per day (200mg 2x a day). I also gave him kiefer and additional probiotics two times a day a couple hours after the doxy every single day while he was on doxy and kept up the daily probiotics for a couple of months after.

From what I understand, the reason Lyme can recur is because the initial treatment wasn't long enough or given in a high enough dose, so give that some thought.

Here is some info on it: http://blackgsd.googlepages.com/home

Thank you for that information...I'm definitely going to look into it with my vet. They gave me 21 days worth, so 3 weeks...I don't have the bottle here to see what dosage he was given. He's about 23 lbs.

eta: realized I'd put 7 wks instead of 3...duh!!

Absolutely get on that site that I posted earlier and find the information on dosing of doxy and take it to your vet. I can also forward you an e-mail that I received from Dr. Tom Beckett, who is a lyme literate vet who practices in TX and is also the consulting vet on the Tick List. He told me exactly how the doxy should be dosed, how long it should be given and why. Especially now, with a reoccurrence, he needs to be treated more aggressively.

One other thing I started to give my boys (since one is HW+ and one is Lyme+) is something called Immuplex by Standard Process to try and help keep their immune systems up. I consulted with Dr. Paula Broadfoot from Arkansas and she also suggested using Klamath Lake algae from Simplexity Health, so I am also giving the boys that and Riley gets an additional product called Stemplex which Dr. Broadfoot said works wonders for people and dogs. I am not sure if it's either of these products, but I can tell you, Riley especially has improved. His body feels better--he has gained a little weight back and it's not fat, he feels more muscular and solid and his temperament has been much much better as well. Of course, this could all be because of Keagan as well and perhaps he is just happier now, but that wouldn't account for how his body feels.

Anyway, I am always looking for ways to improve their immune system because I think it's all about having a strong immune system when it comes to some of these diseases.

Sorry, I've digressed, but please, check out that site and talk to your vet about it. Unfortunately, most vets tend to stick with the typical dosing and treatment time, but the people on the Tick List and vets who practice in an endemic area or who are just "lyme literate" will be adamant about the higher dose and longer treatment time.

P.S. 21 days worth is only 3 weeks and that is far too short of a treatment time.

P.S.S. PM me if you want and I can forward you that e-mail from Dr. Beckett.

Poor Bodie.

So, after Susan (thank you sooo much) sent me some up to date info on Lyme Disease treatment, I had a long talk with my vet (she was out of town when I took Bodie in this last time and so another vet was making the decisions.) She agreed that Bodie probably needed a longer course of doxycycline, but since he had finished the round prescribed by the other vet, she wanted to recheck his titer to see where it was, 6 weeks out.

Well, the titer now is higher now than it was before he started the doxy. Odd thing is, he's totally asymptomatic. He's got all kinds of energy and he doesn't seem to be exhibiting the joint pain and lethargy like before. He has been wrestling, playing, and eating like a fiend, and he gets the zoomies at least twice every evening. I've got a phone appointment with my vet at 12:45, so I hope she can shed some light on this for me. Of course, now I'm reading on the IDEXX lab website that the titer recheck isn't supposed to be done until 6 months post treatment; we did one at 6 weeks post treatment. My gut is telling me to go ahead and do the extended treatment even though he's asymptomatic--what's bugging me is that I don't know for how long post treatment the titer could actually continue to rise. aaagh...this is getting confusing. I think there was some major miscommunication between the vets at this office. I'm going to have to put my foot down and demand that I always see my regular vet when I go there. There seems to be a lack of consistency between the vets at this practice.

Hope you hear something that helps you during your phone appt.
I would love to see a video of his zoomies!! I bet they are cute!

Yup, 6 months after is when you recheck for Lyme, 9 months for Anaplasma. Nice that your uniformed vet had you spend money on a useless test!

So how long was he treated for? Just 3 weeks?

I'd treat now for 8 weeks then wait 6 months to titer. If the vet won't give you Doxy you can buy it online with no prescription.

Yes, he was treated for 3 weeks. The office called yesterday after getting the (useless) titer results and want him to take another 6 weeks of doxy; again this was per a vet other than my regular doc. They are supposed to have it ready for me to pick up whenever I can get over there--I think I'm going to push for 8 weeks worth. Thanks for the info on buying online though; any particular site you would recommend?

CRAP!!! I was just getting ready to pick up the phone and call for my phone appointment, and one of my pathologists came into my office with a question. By the time I got back to the phone, the office was already closed for their lunch hour. This is how my whole week has gone! I just want to scream!!!

No particular site but search for Bird Biotic. It's Doxy labeled for use in birds and you can buy it lots of places.

Also, I usually buy my Doxy online and I can get a bottle of 500 for less than $50. That's with a prescription. Buying it for birds costs more.

How much are they giving you to treat him with? It says above that he's 23 pounds so you want to treat with 200mg total per day at least, 100mg in the am and 100mg in the pm.

They did not tell me what the dosage would be, just that they would have it at the front desk. I'm going to try and call my vet again in a bit to talk to her about it.

ETA: Okay, just talked to my vet. She's going to look at what the other vet prescribed and recalculate it to make sure we are at the max dosage, and for 8 weeks instead of 6. She said that they did the last titer as a "paired" titer (not sure what that is other than a reconfirmation thing), and that we would do another 6 months after he finishes this next course.