I visit this website (http://healthforumfordogsandcats.yuku.com/topic/2076/t/Raw-Meat-Diets.html) from time to time since it is run by a vet and I thought this was an interesting post on raw diets and one vet's point of view as well as what he says his training in nutrition. Just thought I would pass the site on for anyone who might be interested. I don't agree with several things that he states but I thought it was interesting reading anyway. I am not a member on that site, just like to visit from time to time.
You have to scroll down pretty far to see the forum.

Because of discussions like this I've never fully committed to a full raw diet. I always sear ground meats and pour hot water over the surfaces of rmb's just in case.

I did not know that domesticated dogs have a gut pH of 2.7 whereas wolves have a gut pH of 1. It makes dogs closer to us in terms of acidity in their stomachs. As well, the vet said that physiologically, the dog digestive tract is not as short as most people say it is...

I've read alot on both sides, but I have to say the poster's claims (on the linked forum) that no scientific studies on raw diets have been done is flatly incorrect. I've read several concerning the risks of salmonella and the amount of salmonella shed in raw fed dogs' feces. Also, that no scientific studies have been done on commercial kibble is untrue as well, I've read those also. Each person should make their own decisions based on truth and real evidence, not the postings on the Internet of either side. Even if you don't have academic access to veterinary journal databases, most university libraries do and allow the public to use those onsite. It's not so hard to find the info if you look. Deciphering the info if you're not a vet or medical doctor is a little harder, that's why I sought the opinion of several vets (all had slightly different opinions too) and then chose my own feeding plan that I'm comfortable with.

I never understood this. Just because salmonella is being shed in the feces doesn't mean that dogs are getting sick from it. Maybe I actually need to read these studies thoroughly, I don't know. If someone came up to me and told me that Medina was shedding salmonella in her stool I would say, "GREAT! At least I know her immune system is doing it's job because she's not sick!!!"

! I didn't understand it much either because poop has e-coli too, right? IIRC, the studies had to do with dogs getting sick and then passing it around in a kennel environment because the salmonella survived on surfaces. I think it would be an issue with immune challenged dogs. There's also some concern about the salmonella remaining on the dog's mouth and teeth for a certain time and passing it to humans through contact. There are some therapy dog groups that won't accept raw fed dogs. I'm on the fence re: raw. I waffle. Woobie was in just amazing shape when fed raw and I still feed it on occasion. If Indie starts doing therapy work, I wouldn't feed it to him if the group had a prohibition but Woobie will never be a therapy dog and I'm considering increasing it in his diet, but OTOH, he's not a dog that needs ANY more energy!

I think the main issue here is that of the subclinical infection, where the dog doesn't get sick but sheds the bacteria into the environment, which can have an impact on people and other animals.

However, we can't forget that there is no proof that commercial dry food is any different, because it's not routinely tested either.

I actually found the raw feeder poster to be as informative as the vet, if not more so.

In fact, I found my BS detector giving off warning buzzes at this, written by the DVM:

What first turned me off from raw was some very intensely ill cases I saw as an emergency vet from salmonella, e. coli, campylobacter, and other food poisoning pathogens that resulted from the feeding of raw diets. Granted, I did not see a ton of cases, but some that I did see were very bad, even to the point of life threatening.

Oooohhhhh, yeah, the "If you've seen what I've seen, you wouldn't feed raw food" line. Um, okay, first of all: if I saw what vets see on a daily basis, I wouldn't let my dog do ANYTHING. I wouldn't let them cross the street, once I saw a dog that had been hit by a car; I wouldn't let them fetch tennis balls, once I saw surgery done on a dog who had swallowed half a tennis ball; I wouldn't let them put anything at all in their mouths, and on and on and on.

(And yeah, if you're on duty in the ER, you will see cases that are "bad ... to the point of life threatening." I'm sure you would see MOSTLY those, since the milder ones would not wind up in the ER.)

Second, he never says how many cases of food poisoning from pathogens he DID see that caused him to turn off raw. He says that "granted, [he] did not see a ton" -- what does that mean? He saw two? Sixteen? Fifty? Out of how many dogs fed raw? Ten? A hundred? A thousand?

I mean, come on -- that's as silly as the college frat boy who says 'I once read that drinking is bad for you, so I have since stopped reading.'

Raw diets are only as good or bad as the humans feeding them allow them to be. And unlike processed dog foods, the humans who feed the raw diets do have a large degree of control over the quality of the food.

This vet's statement about the horrors that he's seen does not give me, the reader, ANY way to realistically calculate the odds that my dogs will be one of those cases. And those odds matter. They always matter. If there is a 1 in 1,000 chance that I will be killed driving on a highway, I am going to drive a lot less than if there is a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of that. Just common sense.

I fully admit to a bias in this matter, and I also admit that having fed a raw diet for 9+ years to seven dogs, I am far more comfortable with the risks and rewards of the diet now than I could have been at the outset. I think time and experience has given me a realistic look at the likelihood that my dogs will have adverse reactions to something I feed them.

Obviously, we all do what we're comfortable with. It's kind of sad to me to think that some people (and I'm not referring to anyone on this board, just in general) are not exploring various options like raw diets because they might be put off by reading admonitions from vets, but c'est la vie.

I deal with that by eating a diet and taking supplements that will strengthen my own immune system. That way I don't have to worry about what anyone feeds their dogs. Saves me a lot of time that I use for more productive things, like wondering why I can't solve Sudoku puzzles above the second level.

Okay, I am being flip, but I do think that in general, people have been encouraged to focus on the dangers and not on the defenses for stuff like this. Just like the anti-bacterial soaps and wipes and cleansers that we're sold for use in our homes, when in fact if we just use soap and hot water, and keep ourselves healthy with good diet, rest and exercise, those scary bacteria won't have an easy time of getting us.

Is it my imagination, or are human immune systems in general weaker now than they were 30 years ago? I think they are, and I don't think it's because dogs are fed raw food.

Boy, I not only sound like my mother, I feel like her! This must be middle age ... !

Okay, I know this is probably going to sound crazy, but my take on the whole "bacteria shedding" thing, as well as the whole "everything must be sterilized and sanitized" viewpoint is this: just what do you buy all your sanitization products with? Good ole cash...anyone ever stop to think just how absolutely teeming with bacteria, fungi, viruses, etc...those lovely little dollar bills are? There's nothing and filthy and dirty as money! And I probably touch that every day...amazing I'm still alive! I'm kind of like Connie--I try to keep my immune system strong, and I clean with vinegar because I think the chemicals are more harmful than helpful. My dogs eat raw, but it's fresh or freshly frozen meat and veggies and the chances of a major contamination are slim. Bacteria and germies show up everywhere; even on our veggies; we can't escape them so we I figure each one my body or my dogs' bodies fight off makes me that much sronger. I keep my house and counters clean with vinegar and lavender, but if I stressed over every possible source of bacterial contamination I'd go nuts! Now that said, if I had a dog with a compromised immune system or a digestive disorder, I'd probably be feed cooked just in case his system couldn't handle the few bacteria that it might encounter with raw. It's the whole obsession with sterilizing everything and treating every little bug with antibiotics that has created these drug resistant superbugs--now those scare the crap out of me!

Human Health Implications of Salmonella-Contaminated Natural Pet Treats and Raw Pet Food

Article




Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets

Article



Salmonella Infections in Dogs and Cats
Book Excerpt


Given all that, I still feel safer feeding my dog raw stew meat or a chicken quarter than I do eating a bagged Dole Spinach salad myself! And a helluva lot more comfortable than feeding commercial kibble.

Oh, but fret not -- your bagged spinach salad will have been IRRADIATED to get rid of that pesky e.coli and suchlike!

http://tinyurl.com/5zawev

Sometimes I think I live in a world gone mad, and other times I'm certain of it.

I did a bunch of reading when I was contemplating starting raw, but really the things that allowed me to jump in and risk it were the dogs I know who've been fed raw for 10+ years and never been sick.
Between that and the fact that the vet told me not to worry about my poop eating dog because dogs never get sick from eating their poop......

I'm sure of it! I'm fairly convinced what me and the kids are eating is WAY MORE DANGEROUS than anything going down the dogs' gullets.

I just wanted to add another issue about feeding raw especially ground meat. Should any contamination occur to raw meat from bacteria like salmonella, e. coli and/or staphylococcus aureus apparently these bacteria when killed give off endotoxins that will stress the liver and cause chronic liver problems in the long run. I read this in "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets" by Donald Strombeck D.V.M.

Does this mean that when the stomach acids process contaminated meat, will endotoxins be the result?

and then weigh that against the de-natured proteins and other goodness you kill out of meat by cooking it. I dunno I gave up worrying about what might not be great about raw because my dogs do so well on it and I know without a doubt that kibble isn't a great, healthy way to eat. If someone marketed a food that was all in a cooked form like a box of cereal is and told people to eat nothing else- just that and some water, I doubt there woyld be any takers. Just as I crave fresh food, so my dogs seem to as well. It just makes sense to me.

I don't know why so many people think that there is raw and then there is kibble. There is the middle road of lightly cooking fresh food and that to me is the safest way for my dog especially since she has a sensitive system. I would never feed a raw diet to a dog with a compromised immune system or sensitivity issues with the stomach and intestines like colitis.

That being said, the perfect diet is the one that your dog thrives on, and if that's raw that's wonderful. If it's kibble then so be it.

I believe "sammy" (I am so lame for not remembering your name)_is right. Healthy livers should be able to handle the give-and-take of normal detox, which is what you descibe. Much more serious is exposure to pollution, household cleaners, insecticides, and the meds we use to get rid of pests on our dogs (I don't mean you vivilee). We can monitor liver function through twice-yearly blood chem panels, as I do for Ben. Coincidentally, he was due for one when we had our recent crisis. Literally, I had intended to schedule one for this week to check everything before our consultation with Mordanna.

Kibble can be contaminated too. In fact, it's more likely to be, especially if one has a sensitive system. Even the best products seem to have poor quality control, judging from Ben's reaction to kibble.

The only way for a dog with a truly compromised system is thorough cooking of raw meat and even then there is a small risk, just as there is for us. The vet knows the diet Ben is on (his plan is in his chart) and didn't mention s. or e. coli. She wanted to know specifically if he'd gotten into grains lately.

I agree that one should not feed raw to a dog with IBD - I'd go further and scratch things like chronic pancreatitis and EPI also, at least without the approval and supervision of the vet.

I tried both raw and cooked for Ben and for many years the more raw the better, for him. Possibly, I may go ahead and keep doing some version of what I'm doing currently, for him, since some things have changed since our last cooked experiment (he's older and less active, we've had an incident, fish is now cheaper in relation to meat, poultry is off the list, I like the simplicity of not handling pounds of RMBs for him, etc).

I only mention this, because raw meat is what was mentioned specifically here.

I don't know, and I will be interested to see what Mordy has to say about this.

But I do know that I have been feeding raw (not cooked) to my dogs for 9 1/2 years now, and neither Pip, Sunny, nor Shiri has any liver problems, chronic or otherwise. I do blood tests every 12 or 18 months, so I am confident of this.

Considering that Pip started raw when she was 1 1/2, Sunny when he was 8 months, and Shiri on day one (her breeder weaned her onto raw), I would think that if raw meat invariably caused liver problems, I *should* see something like this in at least one dog. And I don't.

So perhaps it depends on some other factors, in addition to the raw meat in the diet? I don't know. I have Strombeck's book, but I don't recall that part.

Also, I agree with you that home-cooked diets are not mentioned often enough in discussion of canine diets. They do represent an excellent 'middle ground' between kibble and raw. And some food manufacturers are beginning to recognize that: DeliFresh is a 'lightly cooked' food that has good ingredients and has been a very good diet solution for many dogs whose owners I know.

I don't agree with statements like this. Plenty of people feed dogs with very compromised systems raw diets and the dogs do just fine. How can you say "the only way"? How do you back that up?

My sister has a dog with thyroid issues, Cushings, a tumor on her liver and a couple of other mast cell tumors. She's waaaaayyy compromised, right? I think a raw diet is part of what is keeping her living and living a darn good life for a 15 year old dog with all of those issues. I wouldn't say that just because raw works for her it's the "only way".

There are lots of knowledgeable people here, really knowledgable, but I think we all can agree that what works for some of us might not work for others and I also think we should avoid statements like "the only way".

JMHO.

I'd agree with you, just based on my own experience. A raw diet was a key part of Sander's treatment protocol that enabled him to live for 7+ years after his cancer diagnosis, and I think that cancer is categorized -- actually I know it is -- as a "compromised immune system." (It's an immune system in collapse, is what it is. ) He had cancer the whole time he ate a raw diet.

Depends on the dog, depends on the condition, depends on the diet. Too many variables in that equation to state anything definitively.

This is purely anecdotal, but when my beloved Machi cat had cancer my vet, who is conventional and not sold on the whole raw thing, told me that the raw diet is probably what kept her healthy and thriving past the point you'd have expected. Even before the cancer, she definitely had some issues with digestion - she would throw up at least 4-5 times a week, sometimes daily. Once we had her on raw the vomiting was down to once a week or less.

Yes, be informed about your feeding choices and feed what you're most comfortable with. If someone isn't interested in or able to feed a raw diet I'm not going to chastise them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy for feeling comfortable with feeding raw.

What I meant by emphasizing "truly" was dogs whose systems are under direct attack, as opposed to a dog like Ben normally who just is more sensitive to attack. I felt a little defensive with my stand on raw feeding, in light of Ben's liver problem this week.

And also the emphasis was on thoroughly - knowing what I do about meat pathogens, if one is trying to avoid that risk, one won't avoid it by lightly cooking meat. My choice of words, "the only way" actually went with that idea rather than saying it was the only way to go. Very poorly written and I apologize for that.

Let me try again:

Everyone has their own comfort zone, plus their knowledge of what actually works for their dog. If your comfort zone and the needs of your dog are such that you want to minimize pathogens in meat, the best way to do that is by thorough cooking and careful handling of all ingredients in the diet.

Surely no one here thinks I'm against raw feeding! All the rest of mine still eat combo diets - raw meaty bones with cooked veggies and carbs. I only do the carbs because some of my dogs literally can't eat enough in one sitting to supply the energy they need to work, and for the others it's just plain less expensive.

Connie, raw food was just one part of what you did for Sander. I was amazed and full of admiration for the complete dedication to detail that went into Sander's wonderful survival story. I see what you two did as a puzzle with many pieces - a story of holistic teamwork and a gold standard of care for those of us with high needs dogs.

I've made some changes to our lives based on that, but not enough. I haven't found a holistic flea solution that works, for instance, and not all our meats and produce are local grown and pesticide free. I've also not found a solution to the vaccine issue though Ben hasn't gotten any yet and won't need any until this time next year.

So I decided to go to cooked meat for Ben, for now at least, while he's recovering. I may have to stay there (see above about comfort zone - my choices with Ben are extremely limited). But I'm the last person to say any way is best for any other person.