Ok, I'm new to this whole 'two dog' thing. And since Captain's already been with rescue 7 months, I have a feeling we'll be fostering him for a few months. So I have to do something about Ella's attitude problem.

The attitude problem (showing her teeth, giving the evil eye, growling), has intensified in the 3 days he's been with us, and so far occured:
- when he plays with a toy, or even accidentally walks near one
- if she's on my lap and he comes over for some loving
- if I don't carefully manage entering the house (Ella sits, door opens, she is released in, then Captain and I follow, with me in between her and him)
-if he wanders over to the half of the kitchen on the side where her food is kept in a sealed bin.
Can you say resource guarding? everything? I've basically just been removing the resource from her, so if she's a butthead, she doesn't get what she wants.

I should also mention she behaves GREAT when there's food around, and she thinks she might be getting some. He's pushy if I have treats though, and will nose-bump me and try to climb onto me for an hour (at least--I gave up then). So I can't have them around all the time until he learns some better manners (which we're working on).

He is a mix of submissive and oblivious--half the time he doesn't even notice her, the other half he gives into her very very easily. I kind of wish he'd just thwack her once with his giant paw--I mean, she totally deserves it.

Ella is very reliable with her 'off' command, and even me just taking a little quick sharp intake of my breath is enough for her to know to knock it off. I'm lucky that she's so responsive. The problem is, Captain is so flighty and shy, that he runs and hides in his crate if I do that. She'll have all her teth out, making that awful evil face at him, he'll have no clue, I'll tell her 'off' in a serious but quiet tone of voice, she'll put her teeth away, and Captain goes running So I'm not sure how I should relay to her that her behavior is totally unacceptable without also freaking him out.

I also feel abd that he really wants to play with toys, but she freaks at him if he picks on up. She guards her toys more intensely than anything else.

I also need to make sure that she doesn't get *more* angry with him if she starts to percieve him being out and around with her having her toys/attention taken away. I do worry that she's going to make the wrong connection with his presence instead of with her buttheadedness.

Oh, she's also been doing more resource guarding from the cats last night and today. This morning, she lay at the top of the stairs, and just held off both cats with the evil eye. Boy told her to knock it off. 20 minutes later, we found her guarding at the bedroom door--refusing to let the tortie out, or other cat in. She just sat, back to half of the frame, other half wide open, but as each cat moved towards it, she'd turn to them and show teeth. She was told (by Boy) 'Ella, OFF. And stop being an a$$hole.' And she did stop, but I have a bad feeling she's home, guarding all sorts of strange things from the cats.

She's already on a rather strict NILIF program, and I 'm making sure she still gets individual outside/inside play and cuddle times, while he's chilling in his crate.

Help, my psychotic dog is starting to drive me a little nuts!

All I can say is good luck! Woobie started being a butthead to Indie, the cats and other dogs at the dog park. Indie's pretty clueless as well and gives in easily, so I think it swelled Woobie's head and he started posturing because it worked. He's back on bootcamp NILIF and I've picked up on some things I was letting slide but shouldn't have, like letting them take each other's toys away, letting Indie move Woobie out of his spot (not intentionally, he's just big and unaware), and letting Woobie out of doors first, out of his crate more, and walking just a nose length in front of Indie. I'm correcting him now for grumbling behavior, but there's honestly only been one more incident since I realigned how I manage them both. I'm new to the 2 dog household too, it's a whole new bag of worms, huh?

Oh dear, Ella's world has turned upside-down and she is not sure how to deal with it!

That's what her behavior sounds like to me, anyway. She's in the 'maybe he'll go away if I tell him to go away' mode and while it's not working, she's not seeing that there's a better way.

You'll probably get some far more useful suggestions from other posters, but I can tell you what I would do, and that is first, to separate them more than it sounds like you have so far. This would allow Ella to observe your interactions with Captain without her being in the picture, and would let her see that he is not a threat to her. I would make sure that Ella retains her 'resident' status and that Captain's 'guest' status is made clear, too.

The way I have done that with foster dogs is to not automatically include them in the routines of the household. For instance, Ella gets a long walk and/or playtime, which is her routine; at that time, Captain is in his room with a Kong. When Ella Time is over, Captain gets a walk, and Ella stays home with a Kong or a treat. It's twice as much work for you, but the dogs see an order and a routine that does not force them into proximity before one or both are ready.

If Ella's getting all resourcy at the door, I wouldn't let her go in first. I'd say to her 'you know what, I have to put the guest in the house, so you sit, okay?' and have her sit-stay while you take Captain in and put him in his room, then I'd go back and release Ella and thank her and give her a treat.

I'd let her know that I need her help managing a 2-dog household. I wouldn't punish her, because it's insecurity and anxiety she's displaying, not aggression. She's nervous. I'd let her know that her displays are unnecessary and that you know she can help you, and I'd tell her that Captain is not going to be staying.

Yeah, I do that. I talk to my dogs.

And while I would make sure that Ella gets special time and special treats, I would ALSO make sure that Captain gets special time and special treats, in the proper order, so Ella can see that you are the resource allocation person and that you know how to distribute them fairly.

Good luck!

LoverofDogs---what amazes me most is she's now decided to also take this out on the cats. Sigh.

Connie--Yeah, they probably should get more 'alone with me' time. I've been walking them together, since Captian wouldn't go outside with just me. He's very into following her, even if she's acting evil. I'll try to see if that's improved enough that he'll go out with just me.

Same with the door thing--he wouldn't go in first, so I had her go in first. He's really quite heavy to carry in doors. I'll try to see if he'll go in with me now, while she waits, for times when they've both been outside.

They are separated most of the time, with the exeption of the 3-4 daily walks, and 2-3 30 minute sessions a day-one in the morning, and two in the evening on workdays, probably will be more on weekends.

I think if he could have a bit more of his 'own' routine, Ella might get the 'guest' thing through her thick little skull. Good idea. I'll just have to get him to trust me enough to do anything by himself with me, instead of copying her. He's a big dork.

I'd be dissapointed in you if you didn't. Not only do I talk to Ella, I usually make up songs to sing to her when she's being a goof (huh, I haven't been doing that cuz it scares Captain, and I bet she misses it...)

Oh I know! That surprised me too (Woobie and Milo are BUDS!) and Woobie got snarky with a little puppy at the dog park too! Almost like he just got in a mood and was like, "You are all pissing me off!" or alternately, "Hey! Look how well that growl worked to make Indie go away, let me see if it works on everybody!" Either way he's going to knock it off! Right now, every thing they do and everywhere they go is being tightly controlled by me and no snarkiness so far.

Good luck!

I can promise you, it will get better...the Monster was pretty snotty when I started fostering...he's so much better now....he knows that HE gets to sleep with Mommy on the bed and that he isn't second rate, but that he doesn't rule the household, I do. Ella hasn't worked out the change in the pack yet, but she will....everything Connie suggested is what I would say too. With KaeJae, toys were an issue with Oscar, so all the toys got put up and I decided who got to play with what...KaeJae got his favorite toy, the Ghecko and Oscar got his non-favorite toy in a different room....eventually it got better and KaeJae would bring the Ghecko to Oscar to play tug with. I always feed my foster in a separate room thatn KaeJae and I also have the issue that he doesn't want anyone walking near HIS food cabinet. That got resolved with nobody walking near it at dinner time and eventually he realized that it's Mommy's food cabinet not his. I also take KaeJae for special rides, leaving the foster behind...so he knows he has the special place in my heart. Now, when Gina came, it was no issue, in fact, he usually brings a half dozen toys and places them around her, trying to get her to play...but this is after about 6 months of different dogs being in my house. So anyway...long story, hang in there, take Connie's advice and I promise, it DOES get better.

See, that's the kind of thing I would keep on doing, and let Captain get used to it. Honestly, I am not very soft, I guess -- if something is not going to hurt my dog, I am going to insist that they tolerate it even if they don't want to. Like Shiri not wanting to be petted when she was a puppy. Um, I will make the kids approach you properly, and I will put myself between you and them, and I will treat you when it's all over -- but you're a dog, you're a cute dog, and it's your lot in life to get petted sometimes. The world does not revolve to the tune that Shiri hears. ! And now, she's 7 and she initiates contact with kids, and she even turns and indicates to them that they should scratch her butt. Self-serving little wench.

So yeah, I would sing to Ella! Make sure Captain is someplace safe, and after it's over, toss him a cookie and laugh and say 'wasn't that silly?' Because dogs pick up on our emotions like the sponges they are, and if you act like something is normal or fun, he is much more likely to stop being afraid of it than if you just avoid whatever it is altogether. Let's face it, Captain has to accept that people in the world sing when he's in the room. They might not sing well, but they sing.

I also, when I fostered dogs who relied heavily on their crates for security, would deprive them of that for 15 - 20 minutes at a time, in order to get them to see that they can survive in the jungle of my living room without being in their safe den. I didn't do it immediately, I gave them a few days to settle in, but if they persisted in seeking refuge from the ordinary things, I would make them up a bed near their crate and *close the crate* so they couldn't get into it, for short periods of time.

I thought of that earlier when you mentioned that he is a crate dog.

Getting him to go in the door -- is he dragging a leash or a tab collar? I do that with fosters too. That way when I tell them to 'go in' I can help them execute the instruction if they need help -- and of course, I treat for the accomplishment.

Oh, yeah, I STILL do that! This week, Pip and Guy are not allowed in the kitchen when I'm getting breakfast ready, Guy because he gets underfoot (mine and the other dogs'), and Pip because she shows teeth to the other dogs about the food. Uh, sorry -- WHO bought the food? When Pip stops spending her days lying on the couch and begins going to work and earning a paycheck, she can show teeth over the food distribution. Until then, she's lucky I don't take those teeth and give them to the other dogs to wear on strings around their necks! That's what I tell her, anyway.

If Ella is getting possessive of her toys, would it make sense to get Captain a couple of toys of his own? I haven't had that problem because Oliver doesn't seem to understand what toys are for. Even if he did, Jack isn't possessive of his toys with other dogs (or of anything really), but when I picked up a dish, crate, bed, etc for Oliver I also got him a couple of toys that were *his* in case it was an issue. You could still control what toys she gets when, but maybe she'd be a little less uneasy if the toys he's getting aren't ones that she identifies as hers, at least at first? Or maybe that would just make her more possessive of what she considers to be *hers*.

I don't know...just thinking out the tips of my fingers. Jack has been so in love with Oliver since he moved in that I haven't had to deal with his nose being out of joint.

Hey, I sing well! I didn't do it on purpose, and I do less of it since Boy and I moved in together, but I just realized I haven't sange Ella a breakfast song, or a dinner song, or a yay lets play type song in a few days.



Oh, he's dragging a leash at all times when out of the crate. But he is stubborn as heck, and puts on the brakes, bugs his eyes out in terror, and starts shaking if he doesn't want to be going somewhere. and kibble, or dog treats, or chicken, or cheese, will do nothing to change his mind about whatever it is. We're working on it. I think it'll get much easier as he starts to trust me a bit. And he definitely needs some confidence building, because he is so unwilling to even consider trying so many things--not even for cheese.

I did think about that. I've given Captain a rubber toy that Ella never touched, and that she hasn't seen since it spent a year with me at petsmart as a classroom toy. Ella generally won't touch rubber, so perhaps I can get him a Cuz or something.

As for stuffy toys, I can bring Ella to my Mom's house, and Ella instantly claims every dog toy in the house. From all the dogs that are living there They are all belonging to her. All the stuffies in the world.

I have been able to teach her to leave the cat toys alone, so I might be able to get him one toy, and teach her to leave that one toy alone.

(I am so getting no work done today)

Yow, poor guy! He needs a lot of work, I'm glad you have the time to do it, and I'm glad that he has Ella -- she sounds like she imparts confidence to him.

Time is on your side. (I'm going to burst into song on that one! Time, time, time, is on my side, yes it is -- !)

You need a book. This one:



I also call this book - How Not to End Up with an Armpit Piranha

Some of it suits NILIF to little dogs, and there are other ideas unique to meeting little dog's needs. One of the most interesting points is that little dogs should decide when to get up and get down from your lap. That's a safety thing too - if Zhi's in my lap and decides to jump down not realizing someone has put something underneath me, she could get tangled, or step in something sharp, or icky. Also, if Ella values snuggle time, instead of trying to decide who gets to share Mommy or Daddy, snuggle time is OVER when she tries to be an Armpit Piranha. Simply placing her on the floor with a happy sounding (for Captain's sake) "Sorry!" should drive home the message quickly.

It won't hurt her feelings to have the toys regulated, as long as you continue to give her lots of one-on-one time.

It's an adjustment to go to two dogs after Ella being the Center of All That Is, but it's an adjustment in the right direction for everyone, even Ella.

Becca--Did you just call my dog an armpit pirhana? She's sooo insulted. She's too big to fit in my armpit, thankyouverymuch.

Ella must ask to come up on my lap (by sitting), and then be invited. If she jusmps up without an invite, she gets kicked off. Same when she acts like an a-hole. I have been letting her decide when she wants to leave, assuming she's behaving, but perhaps I need to step in and ask her to leave my lap too.

Yeah, she used to attack Boy too when he went near her toys. I'd blocked that out of my memory, and he just reminded me. It's not like he wanted her slobbery toys, but she defended them. She'd never had a toy before I got her (hence the rock playing obsession), but she is obsessed with them.

I think I'll be re-reading a bunch of my training books, and ordering some new ones too...and buying Captain his own toy.

I think you should get Ella a job giving assertiveness-training seminars!

I hope you can find a way to have the two of them co-exist and even get some benefits from each other's company.

I'm with Connie. It's not great for either of them for her to rehearse this behavior (stating the obvious), so however you need to rearrange life for it not happen even one little bit, I would do it. It's self reinforcing.

I would pick up all the toys and objects that could possibly be viewed as resources and dole out access to them (and by them, for Ella I mean ONE) during her alone time or her in the crate time.
If that results in her finding other excuses to snark at him, then I would basically keep them separate and reasses once some time has passed.
Hopefully Ella will settle down in time and realise she doesn't need to be a butt and maybe even enjoy having him around. Then you can gradually get them together for short sessions heavily rewarding her for her good behavior and tolerance.

Is he being a big chicken about being out of his crate at all or just venturing out of the house now?

Alissa, I got that book that Becca mentions - it's a nice little book, and I agree - some very helpful things even if Ella's a too-big-for-armpit pirahnna. It helped me a lot with dealing with Zippy (until he got all deaf and stuff, ). I would certainly manage the toy and food thing far more strictly - not giving them the opportunity to get all silly about it. After things get more comfortable you may be able to relax some of that stuff, but for the time being I'd not allow them near the food, and so on. With Bree being gone things are far more peaceful at my house, but I still don't allow anyone even NEAR the food bins. Easier to prevent it than to have to stop it after it starts.

Yep, I've started just keeping him out of that side of the kitchen. Ella is also now in a sit stay, and he is in his crate, during all food prep. And, all the toys are now up if they're both out. We still have an outside toy or two, but Ella hasn't shown any possesiveness over those, so those I'm leaving them outish for the time being.

Ella got sent to her crate last night for showing Captain her teeth when Boy invited him onto the couch. Boy really is convinced all pets should be allowed on the couch to cuddle.

I also bought him his own toy (a Kong Wubba) for him to play with in his crate, and when he is out for solo bonding time. Captain has also decided he can walk through some doorways in some directions first (woohoo!), so I can keep Ella from being in the house first, and feeling like she needs to guard. It's so sad, he really wants her to like him. He really wants the cats to like him too--but they would rather he keep his giant tongue off them.

Ella also got some solo clicker training time, her favorite thing EVAH. Clicker training is about on par with squirrel chasing and momma coming home. I'm teaching her to weave through my legs (Boy thinks this is a horrible idea).

I'm sure it'll get better, and I do think it will, in the end, be good for Ella. And hopefully, it'll be good for Captain too!

Have you considered doing Freestyle with Ella, or have you ever done it? She sounds like a dog who would absolutely love that.

I have more ideas but there's just a whole novel worth of them and I don't want to take up space here. It sounds like Ella could use a little restructuring of her view of who Mommy and Daddy really are. A lot of her "butthead" behaviors can (I feel) be turned to Good rather than Evil and with not a huge amount of effort, beleive it or not!

Zhi's a slightly oversized Armpit Piranha too and I freely admit it. But I hope I've shaped those tendencies sufficiently so people rarely notice she has that tendenciy.

Connie-I really really want to do freestyle with Ella. We're signed up for a CGC class starting in October (she basically needs practice around other dogs and people, just so she can get more relaxed, and it'll be her first official class with dogs, so I want to make it easy), and after that I'm hoping we can take freestyle. They only let you take freestyle after you've earned your CGC at the one place that teaches it around here I've found. She's so animated and bouncy and silly I think she would LOVE it, and be hilarious to watch.

Becca- So you're volunteering to write me a novel? Awesome! Seriously, if you have more ideas you want to share feel free to PM me, or get my phone number, since I think we could definitely still use some help.

And while Ella's definitely oversized for an Armpit Piranha, I'm not about to deny that that description fits her personality quite well. Just like she's more of a calf-biter than an ankle-biter (kidding, she doesn't chase and nip people *anymore*).

She is super duper responsive and obedient for me, but we are still working on teaching her that 'mommy makes all the choices'. We've made major progress in the last 4 years, but we've still got a ways to go. If you could have seen her 4 years ago...yikes! And I was totally unprepared for an insane fearful/possesive/unsocialized/guarding/dominant/ insecure/overattached/toosmartforherowngood dog, so we got off to a slooow start our first year together.

As far as we still have to go, I'm quite proud of how far we've come. Having Captain around also encourages me to be tougher with Ella, since now her behavior issues are something I'm faced with everyday, instead of just when people come over, etc. So it's good motivation for me to keep her progressing, instead of just 'holding' where we are.

And I must say, when she has no toys around, she is lost and pathetic and stressed out. So bad even Boy noticed it. (I had put Captain away, but hadn't then gotten a toy out for Ella). But when she gets a toy, after having none (for a whole 20 minutes), she goes CRAZY in love with it, bouncing around the room playing with it and playing with us. She's a cute little crazy!

It can be discouraging to feel like you've "reset to zero" when new challenges come up, but remember how far you come - and remember that the behavior she's showing you isn't "bad" - it's just the only way she has to tell you that she needs a bit of help dealing with this. She and you both have a bit of growing to do!

I'll email you in a bit. I've got some housework to knock out and tempting though it is to ignore it - I think the dust bunnies are getting ready to take over and kick us all out of the house!