I have been giving the horrific accident involving my daughter and he dog Heidi and her neighbor's tiny poodle some more thought and I would appreciate your feedback.

Cathy has been training religously with both dogs for as long as she has had them - Heidi, around 4 years and AJ around 1. Having said that, I am suspect that Cathy must of had some idea that Heidi had a very strong prey drive towards small animals - that this incident is not isolated. Since she never has them off leash except in class, there may have been some signs while on leash as to a first clue that this event might come to pass. Unless there was something medically wrong with Heidi, could this behavior come right out of the blue? I really don't want to ask her about this since the subject is still so raw.

I am also concerned that Heidi blew off both commands, plotz (drop) and leave it.

Just putting this out there...

I would be very surprised if there had been no indications whatsoever of Heidi's propensity. Whether or not any prior indications were noted by anyone is another question.

A good friend of mine owned a GSD who had a dangerously high prey drive that she displayed to the Shelties in the household. My friend, who has 40+ years of experience in breeding, raising, and training both those breeds, thought that if she kept the GSD separated, the danger would be contained. In a truly horrible incident, the GSD was unseparated for literally two minutes, and in that time she savaged the female senior Sheltie so severely that the Sheltie had to be euthanized. My friend then euthanized the GSD.

These situations are not unheard-of in the dog community. Despite stellar efforts to train and contain the predatory dogs, the risk is always there.

Honestly, I doubt that Heidi even heard the commands that she failed to heed. Once in that kind of prey drive mode, normal channels of communication are often not open.

Like you, I wonder if there is a medical/organic component to this -- if the dogs who killed were suffering from some imbalance in brain chemistry, or something else I can't even guess at. No way to know. Is this level of prey drive considered 'normal'? I don't know that either.

I would also think that she probably had some idea that Heidi had such a prey drive. But I think that the topic needs to wait for quite a while before discussing it with your daughter. It won't change what's already happened and will probably hurt to hear even more.

I have no idea if this sort of thing could come out of the blue. Maybe Heidi didn't realize that it was a dog and thought it was another animal. Has she ever killed animals in the yard before? I mean, I've heard of instances of people with large sighthounds and Italian Greyhounds in the same household, with the large sighthound running with the IG and then catching and killing it because in heat of the moment they forget that its a small dog while chasing and just think of it as prey. In those cases, do you excuse it as being true to their breed or play the blame game?

Its hard to say

I'd wager Cathy has had some indicators Heidi had a strong prey drive and she probably went to great lengths to manage and prevent any opportunity to act. But she clearly never willfully or recklessly exposed someone else's pet to this danger and I imagine she believed all the training she put in would not fail her when it counted most. Also, how can you really know your dog will do such a thing until it does - you might worry, you might suspect, and so you train accordingly.

I'm feeling really lucky at the moment that our friends encouraged frequent play dates with their small dog from the time Pofi was a puppy as he never has seemed to lose that distinction of a small dog still being a dog. I can't help but think this interaction helped.

I agree. She may have given off very subtle signs that weren't picked up.

I wonder if it was a combination of small prey and the fact that the dog was walking by Heidi's "territory"? I'm not sure, just thought I would throw that out there.

ETA although maybe that doesn't make sense because then she would be in both prey and defense drive . . .

I completely agree with this. The people I know with large, high prey drive dogs train the heck out of them and manage them very carefully. So far none of them have had tragedy strike - other than wild animals foolish enough to come into a yard with multiple large dogs already there - but they know it could happen. They hope like heck that it won't, but know that it could.

It is possible that Cathy didn't realize the extent of Heidi's prey drive. Some people want to believe that their dog would be able to tell the difference between a squirrel and a cat or small dog. Sometimes it's true, but just as often it's not. Or they don't realize that the drive to get the critters in the back yard could transfer to small pets elsewhere. Not every backyard hunter will kill a small dog or cat. One of the most successful critter killers I know is also a wonderful puppy raiser and is excessively careful to play nicely with small dogs.

The most important thing to remember is that Cathy took responsibility to Heidi's actions. I know of too many people who refused to acknowledge their dog was dangerous and continued to let the dogs run at large, attacking and killing other dogs. One woman went so far as to move, rather than let the city take her dog, which had attacked 3 other dogs, bitten two adults, and I believe killed a small dog or cat. (My friend is still trying to recover over a $1000 in vet bills when the dog tried to kill her akita mix while they were on a walk, not to mention the countless hours and dollars spent with behaviorists to get him over his fear aggression toward other dogs.)

I think it's important to remember that dogs don't have the same discretionary judgement as we do. If this had been a squirrel that Heidi killed, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
Quite frankly a teacup poodle and a large squirrel or rabbit aren't that different in size. We accept that dogs have predatory drives towards small furry animals but are flabergasted when they kill someone's pet. They usually don't and we like to think they wouldn't, but it's not really a huge stretch to see how it can happen.

This behavior might have come out of the blue or their might have been warning signs- who knows? You mention that Heidi wasn't usually off leash and was really well trained, so it's entirely possible that this was a situation that hasn't presented itself.

Sometimes there's just something and we often can't see it or understand it, that triggers something in our dogs.

Have you ever seen a dog that went nuts around a special needs child who had a strange gait? It's unfortunate, but sometimes the way some disabled people move makes dogs suspicious.

I have certainly had behaviors come 'out of the blue' in both my dogs and my kids ie Rosie's guardy tendencies come out at the strangest times. Her idea of who bad guys are is quite different from mine.I had owned her and competed with her in several venues and never seen that aspect of her make up. Kids and dogs seem to do those things at the worst possible times. Murphy's law I guess.

This situation is a huge tragedy, but also just the cold hard truth about dogs. Some behavior that's pretty normal or typical in some dogs, can be really tough, sad or hard to deal with.
I don't think that means there was necessarily anything wrong with Heidi or that Cathy necessarily made any mistakes other than realising that the garage door might open. I see this as a the perfect storm / freak incident.

I don't have any idea becuase I don't know the dog, but I imagine your daughter is playing the whole thing and the life of her dog over and over in her mind. Did the little poodle make it off life support?

One thing to remember is that she trained the dog to respond to the commands as well as she could. But that wasn't enough to get through when the dog was "in the zone." I work Ted in situations where he's close to that point where dogs just slip into instinctive mode and no longer respond. Many times I miss the boat and there he goes. The difference is that these training situations are relatively safe for all concerned so we can go back and work through this slowly.

It takes a lot of practice and work with an individual dog to even recognize the signs that the dog is approaching that hyperstimulated level. In working, we have lots of tools to scale back the tension level, but honestly with a young dog (and four is still young for a GSD), even a highly trained dog you get slips.

So the point of all this is that I don't think there was anything abnormal with the dog, nor do I think the situation was necessarily preventable or predictable, unless the owner/handler had the foresight to train the dog via small steps to respond to direction in the presence of that exact type of stimulation.

well said

Agreed - very well put.

Thank you Becca and all of my ODOers. You really helped me.

I agree that there were probably signs. My GSD shows some signs of prey drive. I try to be realistic about it. I have 4 good sized dogs that are all well socialized and good with other animals in their home, or when they are on leash. They live with 8 cats.

However, I am also realistic, and I truly believe that if a stray cat came running through my yard while they were out they would go into pack prey drive and could kill it. I do all I can to minimize that risk, my yard is fenced, I check the yard before I allow the dogs out, and I am always out there with them. But I can't train or prepare for every possible situation, and some day they could catch. The same could be said for a toy poodle or any other small animal that came through my yard.

Management can fail. And dogs are still dogs. They are carnivores and hunters by nature..

Bari I am so sorry you and your daughter are going through this. I made mistakes when I first rescued Athena and had a few horrible accidents happen with other dogs. Athena also attacked me due to predatory drift twice and my Sister once. She tore my leather jacket apart and had I been a smaller person it could have been a lot worse.

The only indication Athena ever gave that she was about to attack was her head went slightly down...I guess that would be eye stalk. But, a dog that is going to attack due to predatory drift gives little indication.

No matter how well trained Athena was and how good she was for the look at me command etc...I had to manage and be aware of her predatory drives at all times. I had to get Athena a basket muzzle, it was also required for me to have one on Athena at all times during obedience or any event I may be around other dogs, children etc. I was very fortunate that my behaviorist and my Vet were familiar with predatory drives and worked with me. They told me that even the most reliable down, drop it etc can not be relied upon in the heat of the moment.

Bari I feel so bad for everything that has happened. The little dog and owner how are they doing?

Or Cathy did realize Heidi's prey drive and that's why she did all the training with her and why she was always very caution to make sure Heidi was always leashed.