...part of why he doesn't know many commands.

Whenever I try to have a training session with him he loses interest in about two minutes. I think he loses focus and doesn't get what i want out of him. I work with a clicker and high value treats. And very quickly he drops his ears, takes treats with a bored attitude and loses focus. Then he wants to go lounge on the bed. And that's it, no more. Perry usually is all happy and wiggly during training sessions. I try to let Perry go first and crate Marco during Perry's session so he sees how much fun Perry is having. Marc still loses interest.

He did this right in the beginning when i got him. So I didn't push it and decided to give him more time to bond and get used to the house and whatever (i know, training = bonding). But every time I have tried since, he still develops the same attitude. Every command he knows, he learned beside Perry. He's just not cool on private sessions.

I don't do much correcting during sessions. At most I'd do a gentle "ah-ah!" to pause whatever he's doing and to give him a new direction instead. I seriously keep everything quite positive. I'm wondering what sort of direction to take. Marco is a very independent thinker, whereas Perry is pretty willing to work with me. Typically, Marco figure stuff out independently while Perry will stand and stare at me (such as an overturned kitty cube that they want to get into).

since I'm not insightful trainer extraordinaire, what suggestions can you guys make to engage him in training sessions. i know his breeder joked that IGs need to be trained as if they thought of the exercise first and already think something is fun. Sounds like it applies, no?

I am no trainer extraordinaire or even ya know, a competent trainer but: Leave 'em wanting more. You may want to literally do only 30 seconds of treating and put everything up and walk away while he's still engaged. Then after awhile do 45 seconds and just gradually build up the time but always stop leave him wanting more.

Soda was like this on sheep. We had to start with 2 minute sessions and those two minute sessions always ended with something fun and now we can work for 1/2 hour+ solid work with actual learning. It took quite awhile to build up her ability to deal with the pressure of learning and working. (and getting chased with a stick, haha)

I also can't do long training sessions with LT. Even if there are no corrections (not even an ah-ah) she shuts down under the stress of learning so we keep her sessions short and fun.

someone else will come along with better advice, I'm sure.

Paige

I agree with the short sessions as well.

Another thing to remember is to use your voice and body language. I notice that when I am training sometimes I get wrapped up in it and I realize I'm not acting that fun. So I really try to portay in my voice and body language that I'm super excited when they do something right - it doesn't take much to get April excited, but for C I really have to jump up and down and act all goofy. He usually perks up then.

Short sessions are a great idea. I also recommend playing with toys as a reward instead of or along with food. My Beamish would lose interest in food fairly quickly, but boyoboyoboy offer a chance to chase a ball in exchange for a command and he was very excited to do it. And Havana is a training demon if I have a tug around my neck. She'll work for food, but she WORKS for tug.

You may also want to break the behaviors into teeny, tiny pieces. It's possible that if Marco is a by the books dog that asking too much too soon of him is frustrating. A training plan for a behavior like shake might look like this:

1. Dog sits reliably.
2. Touch paw.
3. Put hand around paw. Immediately release.
4. Gently raise paw 1 inch and immediately release
5. Gently raise paw 2 inches. Release.
6. Gently raise paw 3 inches. Release.
7. Gently raise paw to desired height. Release.
8. Hold paw on ground for 3 seconds.
9. Hold paw on ground for 5 seconds.
10. Raise paw 1 inch and hold for 5 seconds.
11. Raise paw 2 inches and hold for 5 seconds.

Etc., etc.

Normally I recommend that the dog can handle the behavior 8/10 repetitions, but maybe for Marco you'd only look for successes 4/5 repetitions before moving on. Some steps would go really quickly and you'd get the response you want the first time. Other steps you'd practice more often. But with such baby steps you're setting Marco up for success.

The other thing that we've done with Havana, who used to turn off during training, was to put some fun as rewards into the training. For example, if she heeled nicely for 5 steps, I'd click, hold my hand up, tell her to "touch", then give her the treat. The chance to bounce up for a touch was a bonus reward and I can use "touch" as a reward if I don't have a treat or toy handy. Or I'd call her to me for recalls and throw a toy or treat between my legs so she could continue her run a bit longer.

A couple of other things my trainer recommended to me:

1) No meals within 2-3 hours of training. (My lessons were in the morning, so she didn't get breakfast.)
2) The dog should be crated for 45-60 minutes before the training session. While crated you are not interacting with the dog - no talking, no giving treats, etc. Being out of the room is better.
3) As soon as you finish training, put the dog back in the crate for a little while. Again do not interact with the dog. It's not punishment, so you can give breakfast or whatever, but the dog is only interacting and having fun *during* the training session.

These changes made a huge difference in Havana. She's really excited to work now, not that we've actually worked in waaaaaaay too long.

I'll try to keep it super short and put him back in the crate before he gets bored.

The thing with toys... he's not hugely toy motivated. He'll go insane for toys at certain times of day whenever *he* want to play but not so much when I try to engage him with them.

So I'm thinking of a regimen like this...
-he sits in crate while watching me work with Perry to see how much fun Per is having training (or should i just skip that and work in another room with Per?)
-I let him out of the crate and invite him over
-for a minute or so I ask him to do something he knows for treats - sit, stand, down alternating between them
-After a super quick session, i grab a toy and invite him to play for a minute
-put him back in crate



Calypso - the thing about repetitions, he doesn't seem to get what I'm trying to do. He'll get bored before he understands what I want and what I'm rewarding for. Within those 4/5 we don't get any success and don't move on. And by 8/10 he puts on a "mommy beats me and i'm being abused!" face even though I'm trying to stay super positive and happy and not reprimanding at all.

I would also drop the "ah-ah's". You don't need them and being verbally corrected can be a major motivation killer and make a soft dog (or any dog really) not enjoy the training process. The fact that you did not click is the indication to a clicker savvy dog that he did not do the desired behavior. That's one of the big differences in clicker training and IMO why it works so much better.
If your dog doesn't get it right or end up performing the desired behavior every. single. time. that's fine. You can wait 3-5 seconds (in which time he can think and have a chance to do the behavior) and cue him again or just walk away.
You can also capture the desired behavior too.


Oops I missed you last bit. Being confused is hugely frustrating. You could try luring the behavior , click and treat for 3 repititions.(I assume you'r eteaching with luring not shaping) Then add the cue and WAIT. Get a couple on cue and quit. Just make sure you don't lure it, then ask for it, then go back top luring it -- then you inadvertently teach the dog to do nothing until the lure comes out. You could also go back to working on just one behavior per session until he's really clear on that one, which will make it easier and less pressure for him.

I like the idea of crating him and working with Perry and then switching them out.

Have you tried free shaping with him? Even just capturing something tiny when he's not really expecting it, like maybe moving his head a fraction of an inch. That way it becomes a sort of game and it doesn't need to be anything vaguely useful.

I agree with the others - keep the sessions really short. If you have the same routine when training, i.e. put M in crate, train with P, then P in crate, etc. perhaps he's getting bored/anxious with all the preparations for the sessions - Nutmeg's that way when she thinks we're going to clip her nails. She can read us really well and gets anxious. Maybe try spontaneous sessions - keep a clicker and treats in your pocket and just c/t for anything.

Let us know how it goes!

I agree with free shaping. But it's possible he might "catch on" to that as well. There's some dogs that just don't fit the "training" model. These dogs sometimes respond better if you put what you want into a context. Instead of "sit", ask him to sit on a mat. Or stand if that's what you are wanting to shape. Instead of a down/stay, make it, "Stay with this toy."

Amazingly, some dogs like this actually enjoy training more when it's more complicated, rather than simplified as we assume dogs need. Lynn's like this, I've found, as are most of my LGDs. But if I put everything they need to know in the context of a task, they learn immediately and seem to enjoy it.

Just something to consider.

Becca, could you elaborate on that 'complicated' method? I think I have a vague idea but I'm not quite grasping it.

I haven't really tried much shaping because, well, i don't feel confident enough to understand that I'm doing the right thing and being consistent with it. I've got... a lot to learn. Its just odd because Perry is so quick at picking up stuff. In two short sessions, I have him almost doing a successful "pass right" thing. Marco won't even do 'shake' on the other hand.

It seems that Marco wants to learn most when he's in a group. Or rather when he's with Perry and he feels the need to compete for the reward, then he wants to shine. Obviously that doesn't make for a good lesson (in obedience class he was actually shy though, it seems he only wants a comfy environment). But I'm wondering if there is any way i can implement that?