Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but it was brought to my attention on another board that TWO not only changed their name, but also changed the ingredients in their formulas for the worst (but while using cheaper ingredients decided to increase the price?)

Examples:

"New" Wild and Natural:
Chicken Meal, Chicken, Chicken Fat, Dried Potato Product, Salmon Meal, Natural Flavors, Salmon Oil, Dried Egg Product, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Tomato Pomace, DL-Methionine, Dried Whey Product, Casein, etc

"Old" Wild and Natural:
Chicken Meal, Fresh Chicken, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract), Low Ash Salmon Meal, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils (preserved with mixed tocopherols and rosemary extract) Eggs, Dried Chicken Liver, Dried Whole Milk, Dried Whey Extract, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, etc
---------------------------

"New" Ocean Blue:
White Fish Meal, Salmon, Dried Potato Product, Chicken Fat, Salmon Oil, Natural Flavors, Dried Apples, Dried Blueberries, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon, Ground Fenugreek, Dried Garlic, Ground Sunflower Seeds, Ground Sesame Seeds, Dried Kelp, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Dried Whey Product, Casein, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach,etc

"Old" Ocean Blue:
Low Ash White Fish Meal, Salmon, Potatoes, Sardine/Mackerel/Anchovy/Tuna Oils, Kelp, Alfalfa Leaf, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Blueberries, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Taurine, Spirulina, etc

Odd for the addition of "chicken fat" to Ocean Blue (and their Dakota Bison formula--not listed here) and also the use of "potato product" (new) vs "potatoes" (old) and "egg product" vs "eggs."

Also, they added "egg product" to the Dakota Bison formula (which it did not originally have). So for those feeding it w/ a dog allergic to eggs, beware!

"New" Dakota Bison
Bison, Salmon Meal, Ground Millet, Ground Brown Rice, Oat Groats, Chicken Fat, Sweet Potatoes, Salmon Oil, Dried Apples, Dried Cranberries, Dried Figs, Ground Thyme, Ground Anise Seed, Natural Flavors, Dried Carrots, Dried Celery, Dried Beets, Dried Parsley, Dried Lettuce, Dried Watercress, Dried Spinach, Dried Egg Product, L-Lysine, Tomato Pomace, Dried Whey Extract, Dried Casein, etc

"Old" Dakota Bison
Fresh Bison Meat, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Amaranth, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, etc


This is just another reason why I do not trust my dog's health to this company (JMO though).

Thanks for the heads up, Jana - I haven't been able to keep up much on recent developments because I'm so busy.

It sure is especially disappointing to see all that "chicken fat" appearing in formulas that don't use chicken as a meat source.

Yeah, it is very disappointing. Another thing that concerns me is the fact that they 1.) added chicken fat and 2.) changed ingredients around, and yet they still managed to keep the same exact protein/fat % ? Makes me wonder....

What did they change their name to? When will the changes take place do you know?

I have a friend whose dog will only eat that food and only does okay on that food.

Keep in mind they are always expressed as a "minimum" percentage in the guaranteed analysis. I'm sure you'd see at least some differences in an analysis on either "as fed" or "dry matter" basis.

At this point I must say I'm glad that I have removed this company's products from my list (of what I feel comfortable recommending to clients) quite some time ago. This new development validates my decision.

WOW - those are NOT good changes at all!

We'll be looking for a new food.

Chicken Fat in Ocean Blue?
It was a nice grain free fish why did they ruin it?

My guy was eating the Wilderness Elk - which they messed with also.

This is really discouraging.
Any advice on a good kibble?

From another forum:


"Just called TWO. They confirmed that the ingredients on the website is correct. It IS what is in my bags of food. Even though the ingredients are listed differently on the bag. They are using up the old packaging. The ingredients on the old packaging is not whats in the bag.

I became so irritated with the man I spoke with I cut the conversation short. He was talking in circles, he knew nothing about the formulas. He told me that the formula had not changed, but that they had to list the ingredients different per AFCO. I then asked him what was the name of Brewers Yeast and chicken fat, citric acid, rosemary extract etc in the previous formula. He couldn't tell me."



So they are using new ingredients in bags w/ the old ingredients listed? Wow...just wow.

Aside from being shady business, why are these changes bad? I'm looking for info, not trying to be a champion for TWO.
Is it b/c of dogs who have allergies may be exposed to allergens (which is infuriating, I understand that)?
If a dog doesn't have any problems, are these changes so awful?
Thanks for the help.

Wow...thanks for the heads up. I had just decided to try Orijen since my pet store now carries it. I was a little hesitant because Nick's bloodwork was so great on Timberwolf, I didn't want to mess with a good thing. Seeing that they raised prices while cheapening the ingredients, I'll take my chances with a company that is a little more trustworthy.

Why am I not surprised.

Especially considering the fact that at least one TWO employee was "polling" people incognito on several forums about their opinions on food ingredients.

As for the "new ingredients in old bag" stuff - many food companies will tell you that AAFCO gives a "grace period" so that they can use up their old packaging (it's expensive), but this is not the case. The truth is that the ingredient lists must reflect what's actually in the container. End of story. If someone tries to convince you of this BS, ask for the page number of the AAFCO manual where this "grace period" is outlined. It doesn't exist.

--------------------------
The old ingredients just by reading side by side, are definately
much better than the new ones.
They took away "fresh" meat, added chicken fat, more grains groat oats
casein, etc. they just really ruined the food.

Maybe Mordanna can answer better.

BUT, to change the ingredients and NOT inform the public is awful period.
That's where the trust really takes a dive IMO.

Here's the response I received from my e-mail:

Update for Case #3001 - "Change in Food Formula's"
Hello,
I apologize for any perceived change in quality but it is far from the truth. I just posted this to the forums, but here it is in case you are unable to view it:

Due to some concerns of a possible formula 'change' in Timberwolf Organics we'd like to set the record straight. The ingredient list on our website has always reflected the food in our bags. Some online retailers that carry our food do not necessarily update their listing to reflect what we have on our website. The food we produce has not changed.

With our older packaging there was some compliance issues with some descriptors of the ingredients. For example 'low ash salmon meal'. Low Ash can not be defined under AAFCO guidelines so even though the salmon meal that we use is exactly the same as before we must remove the low ash portion of the ingredient listed.

This is a similar case with the dried potato product, dried egg product and a few other ingredients. Since the recent boom in natural and holistic ingredients and dog foods there has been a lag in definitions available through AAFCO. AAFCO defines a potato or egg being used in a food as a dried potato product or a dried egg product. There has been no change in supply or quality in any of our foods. We have been merely updating to the 'correct' definition under AAFO guidelines.

As for the chicken fat in the Ocean Blue and the Dakota Bison it has always in all of our formulations. Do to an oversight when we switched bag manufacturers a few years ago it was left off the ingredient list and wasn't discovered until we switched to the new bag manufacturer and started to review the label. We apologize for any perceived deceit as there was none intended.

Chicken fat will not trigger an allergic reaction in dogs or any animals that is allergic to chicken. The antigen that is associated with chicken allergies is only found in the protein portion of the chicken, i.e. chicken meat and meal. It is not in the fat, and chicken fat is probably the best single source of the correct ratio of omega 6 and omega 3 fatty acids available.

For the rumors of financial problems or other issue are not true. We have recently moved into a new office high rise in downtown Orlando and sales of Timberwolf have been spectacular. We are in no danger of going out of business or selling out to a faceless corporation (who we hear are the ones spreading the rumors - some companies cannot compete on quality and so must use more devious means to try to create a competitive advantage). We will continue to make, in our opinion, the best food on the market.

If you wish to change to another food over this issue there is probably nothing that we can do to to change your mind. Thank you for the time that you did use the food and we hope in the future that you try us again. For those of you on the fence as your experience please ask yourself: Has your experience with our foods been positive? Like I said earlier the formulas have been the same and have not changed in over two years. The formulas are excellent food that have changed the lives of thousands of dogs for the better, hopefully many of your own dogs. If your dog has enjoyed the food we hope you continue with us.

We soon will have the most compliant bags in the industry and many other manufacturers will be going through the same procedure as us in the future with the greater scrutiny by AAFCO. We will be having more information coming soon regarding the new bags. If you have any other questions please email at customer.support@timberwolforganics.com

If you have any other questions feel free to email or give us a call. Thank you.

Joseph Carey
Timberwolf Organics, Inc.
P. 407-877-8779
F. 866-796-8814

This sort of thing just puzzles me. I'm left with some unpleasant impressions. To reconcile this statement with reality, I feel like either a) TW is incompetant and sloppy and cares little about dogs with issues related to specific ingredients (it is NOT true that chicken fat will never trigger allergies in dogs sensitive to chicken) or b ) It's common practice among all dog food companies to switch around ingredients without offering consistent public documentation. The last of course is even scarier. I don't know what to believe.

^^yes, so whoever feeds it has been feeding different ingredients that
are not on the bag

I don't really have the time right now to go into detail on the whole topic, but I really wanted to call BS on two of the statements in the email by Mr. Carey:



If that is in fact true (and who knows what is anymore with this company, this isn't the first and only example of incompetence), how would they explain that all along the wrong ingredients were listed on their company website? Mislabeled bags is one thing, but being careless enough to provide the same incorrect information to customers on their website, where it is no effort to update it at all, is entirely different.



While this is correct as a general rule, reality is that it's not just about "allergies", many dogs are sensitive to any kind of chicken/poultry components and can't tolerate them in their diet. The whole thing could certainly explain why some dogs I know of did not do well on TWO foods when technically it should have met their needs.

Wow, this really bums me out, I had just started on TWO Ocean Blue and I no longer feel comfortable feeding it. So far my dog has done fine but I don't like the inconsistant information and deception. I chose this food because it was grain free, no chicken (so I thought), and not super high protein. What would be a good alternative for a senior dog? I thought she may have a problem with chicken but have not proved or disproved that yet. I want to stay grain free to help arthritis and also feed some prepared raw as well. What about Wellness Core?

This is very interesting. I don't yet know that much about food - I'm still learning but have been incredibly impressed after switching my dogs to higher quality food. I have to say (and this is admittedly trite) I am really put off by an email from a company representative with so many grammatical and typographical errors. If they are trying to impress (and buy back) customers with an email, you'd think that they would recognize the difference between a "do" and a "due" - it makes me really wonder about their care in checking the ingredient lists...

What makes me furious is that they are basically trying to say that the ingredients were always what they are listed as now, they just had to "clarify them per AAFCO specs." Ok....are you kidding me? Are you saying that chicken fat was always in there you just conveniently didn't feel the need to put it on the label?

Also, I had thought about using the lamb and apples a little, until the "ingredient change" or "ingredient clarification" went from:

"Old": Lamb meal, brown rice, salmon meal....

to:

"New": Lamb, brown rice, salmon meal....

...umm, there's quite a difference between having lamb meal listed first vs. lamb. If that's how it always was but you decided to list it differently in the past, that makes me sick. Even the larger companies (SD, Euk, etc) aren't that stupid...they AT LEAST change the packaging or write "new and improved" or something on the bag to alert customers of a change!

Also, funny you mentioned that you are now in some swanky "high rise building in Florida." Glad to know your profits have given you that....clearly your ingredients aren't costing you too much.

Ok, I promise I will be done after this, but I have one more thing I wanted to add.

I am cross-posting this from another forum, but I feel it is beautifully stated!

This is an email that another person just sent TWO regarding their thoughts on the matter:

"We have recently found out that you've changed your ingredients, and not for the better. We've read your heap of lies on the Dogster food forums. To say that the formulas have not changed, just AAFCO is making you rename ingredients is the most disingenuous pile of crap we've ever seen. What were you calling tomato pumace before? There's nothing that says, "Tomato extract a la king, or ketchup expeller souflee." What were you calling brewer's yeast and beets before? And sodium selenite was not mislabeled as selenium proteinate. They are two different compounds that only a liar or a brain dead idiot would be able to confuse. Your statement that you have six months to change your bags is also a crock. If the formulas have been in use for two years, as your company has said to other consumers, then you should have changed those labels two years ago. Is your bag manufacturer located on Jupiter? That would explain a few things. We know it takes radio signals a while to get there from earth. In addition, we looked at your ingredients list a couple months ago and it was still the old recipe so your contention that your website has always been updated is also a lie. We told the store we USED to buy your product from about all this (we are the reason they are selling it in the first place). They are going to look into this matter themselves, but will most likely discontinue selling your products. Whether your explanation is true (only a true moron would believe it) or not, they have gotten lousy service from you, and you never informed them about these changes/mislabeling/insert lie here.

Oh, and here's a tip; changing to cheaper ingredients while raising your prices is not good for business, at least from the consumer's point of view.

Do us a favor, don't bother replying to this. We don't need another pile of excrement. We make enough of that ourselves. We trusted you, and put faith in your products. That trust is gone, and we are switching to a new food, as are a lot of dogs we know.

Hope you enjoy your shiny new downtown Orlando office, and thanks for putting our health at risk with your deception. We really appreciate it. "



I love it!

Haha, telling it like it is.

That last email is a great one!

It could have been such a good company, with such good food. but they're just a bunch of lying idiots.

I'm just glad I took Ella off of their lamb and apple well over a year ago. Even though it was working well, they just give me a strange feeling.

Just as a side note, here is a link to ingredient lists of the food:
http://forums.dogfoodproject.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=187

That information was taken from the TWO website and last updated according to the editing time stamp at the bottom of each post.

So much for "The ingredient list on our website has always reflected the food in our bags. Some online retailers that carry our food do not necessarily update their listing to reflect what we have on our website."

My favorite line:



At least I know now why the Ocean Blue we tried a while back didn't work for Ben!

I never trusted this company and I never even fed TWO! Good thing I listened to myself.

OMG! i'm so glad i took my dog off timberwolf 9 months ago. such a shame though, their stuff was quite good.

and that email...i basically laughed out loud at work.

I had to return a few bags of food awhile back - they smelled horrible.
Also, my guy threw-up a few times when I opened new bags of food.
http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Main/12061/Number/136994#Post136994
That explains the changed ingredients.

I threw the old bags in the garbage.

Here's a different set of ingredients which includes
Menadione - how many sets of ingredients do they have?

Lamb/Barley & Apple - Lamb Meal (Imported from New Zealand), Whole Ground Oats (Imported from Scandinavia), Whole Ground Barley, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols and Rosemary Extract), Whole Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Meal, Unrefined Walnut Oil, Sun Cured Alfalfa, Dried Goat's Milk, Nutritional Yeast, Sun Cured Seaweeds, Cottage Cheese, Rosemary, Yeast Culture, Amaranth, Apples, Cinnamon, Thyme, Fennel Seed, Dried Carrots, Anise Seed, Ginger Root, Basil, Dried Mint, Salmon Oil, Lecithin, Yeast Culture, Probiotics (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus lactis, Bacillus bifidum, Steptococcus diacetilactis, Bacillus subtillus), Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Oxide, Vitamin E supplement, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Thiamine, Niacin, Vitamin A supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Iodate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K), Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Copper Sulphate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Calcium Iodate, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide (source of Iodine), Papain.

Where did this last list come from?

http://www.naturalpets.net/food.shtml

scroll down to timberwolf

Actually, if you read the "Nature's Logic" first paragraph about
the bad stuff that's not in their food:
"You will not find chemically synthesized vitamins, minerals and trace elements such as menadione sodium bisulfate (synthetic source of vitamin K), ethylenediamine dihydriodide (synthesized source of iodine), copper sulphate (synthesized source of copper), or sodium selenite (synthesized source of selenium) added into any Nature's Logic products."
- after that timberwolf has all those ingredients listed.

I was reading about different foods and I couldn't
believe it. It's definately a new ingredients list because it
has the chicken fat, rosemary extract and more grains which it didn't have before.

There are so many versions now of what ingredients are in timberwolf
it's downright scary.
What are the real ingredients?